As we're unlikely to see terraces again at football, this is the virtual equivalent where you can chat to your hearts content about all football matters and, obviously, Arsenal in particular. This forum encourages all Gooners to visit and contribute so please keep it respectful, clean and topical.
There's no question that George was just as much of a dictator as TOF, but he wouldn't have tolerated any of the shit that TOF does. He always tried to win the league and when he didn't, he'd usually win us a trophy, despite the poor football in his later seasons. He also built and coached the back five from scratch (and did TOF a massive fucking favour in the process).
The only Arsenal manager to win the Cup Winners Cup and the League Cup
Sean wrote:There's no question that George was just as much of a dictator as TOF, but he wouldn't have tolerated any of the shit that TOF does. He always tried to win the league and when he didn't, he'd usually win us a trophy, despite the poor football in his later seasons. He also built and coached the back five from scratch (and did TOF a massive fucking favour in the process).
The only Arsenal manager to win the Cup Winners Cup and the League Cup
And when Arsenal were horribly exposed by Benfica in the European Cup ("naive", you might say ), George realised that he needed a new tactical blueprint to win in Europe (strong defence, packed midfield, lone striker, counter-attacks and setpieces), not unlike the method used by Chelsea in 2012. So basically it took George one failed season to work out what was needed to win a European trophy. Wenger hasn't learned what it takes in EIGHTEEN seasons.
My first ever thread on this forum although i have been a regular reader for many moons now so finally hello all.
The bottom line is that Wenger is the boards dream! And this is for a number of reasons but mainly i would think that they stem from purely business and financial reasons which would be:
1) He spends relatively small money in comparison to others therefore saving big money!
2) He has achieved Champions league football for the last 18 successive seasons which brings big money!
3) Despite very limited success on the pitch for the last decade the stadium is full week in and week out so big money continues to come in despite relative failure!
Therefore from these 3 reasons alone the club/business is a success and that surely is their bottom line and i think that if a trophy happens to come along then that is just an added bonus!
I find Wenger as frustrating as the next man, the lack of a plan B when things are not going the teams way. The way he brings 3 subs on and refuses to change tactics and seemingly believes a change of personnel will bring the required result. The way he simply refuses to say we were beaten/outplayed by a better team on occasions when it is glaringly obvious that we have been. The way he signs players that are clearly not Arsenal quality and then expects them to be able to play like Barcelona!
On numerous occasions i have sat in the ground listening to fans berating players for coming up short, of which Bentner springs to mind but it is never that players fault he is playing for Arsenal. That decision was taken by Wenger and i often think that those players must have been laughing their heads off almost thinking "Ive landed on my feet being here, im punching well above my weight but until otherwise i will just carry on!" These players are good footballers who would do a job for a Norwich or a Stoke or a Swansea but are they good enough for Arsenal? No.
Where do we go from here though, i still just cannot see us winning the title this year and yet this will be not only the best chance but also the last chance we have at winning it for many years in my opinion. What with Pep arriving at City and Jose looking likely to end up at Old Trafford then this has to be our best chance but i am sure we will inevitably come up short im afraid.
However, and it is a big however, just who does replace Mr W? Will the board pay the big money to bring in a huge name manager and will they pay the huge money that that particular manager wants to spend on new players? Im not so sure they will so therefore do we plod on with Wenger?
Mrs DeGuissons family are all Charlton season ticket holders and i am by no means comparing Arsenal to Charlton but a few seasons back when they had Curbs at the helm and they were finishing regularly in the mid table of the Prem they thought they could get rid of him and put someone else in who could push the team on to further glory. What happened, they went backwards and are now surely going to slip out of the championship. Is what they didn't realize at the time was that under Curbs it was the best it was going to be, it was the pinnacle for them and yet they didn't know it. And right now that is one of my underlying fears about Arsenal. Is this the best it can be? Should we be grateful for what we have right now?
Only time will tell, but if we replace Wenger and put A. N. Other in charge and we go backwards a la Man Utd currently are will we all look back on these heady days with fondness??
For the time being though the stadium will still be full week in and week out!
fabiandeguisson welcome to the forum. I agree with most of your post, but the going backwards fear is one I don't buy into. Let's be realistic, the board clearly don't give a shit about football, but they aren't the ones putting a shackle on transfer funds, its Wenger who constantly refuses to spend, in-fact he even said if he was given 100 Million, he would give it back. the reality is that we have thrown away several league titles because Wenger refused to spend the money available. The board are guilty of prioritising money over on field success, but they don't prevent Wenger from spending, so with another manager, I would expect at the very least, a better approach to the transfer market. Combine that with a modern day view to tactics, and training methods that aren't pre-historic and it wouldn't be too hard to find a better manager than Wenger. Also, if you think we wont slide with Wenger here, well it's going to happen sooner or later. Just think of the PL managerial line up's that are probable next season. Guardiola in at City, Mourinho more than likely in at United, Simeone possibly in at Chelsea, and Klopp in his 2nd season with L'pool. There is a massive chance that we will struggle to make the top 4 next season. Oh, and if we don't win the league this season, expect us to be looking for replacements for Ozil and Sanchez.
fabiandeguisson wrote:My first ever thread on this forum although i have been a regular reader for many moons now so finally hello all.
The bottom line is that Wenger is the boards dream! And this is for a number of reasons but mainly i would think that they stem from purely business and financial reasons which would be:
1) He spends relatively small money in comparison to others therefore saving big money!
2) He has achieved Champions league football for the last 18 successive seasons which brings big money!
3) Despite very limited success on the pitch for the last decade the stadium is full week in and week out so big money continues to come in despite relative failure!
Therefore from these 3 reasons alone the club/business is a success and that surely is their bottom line and i think that if a trophy happens to come along then that is just an added bonus!
I find Wenger as frustrating as the next man, the lack of a plan B when things are not going the teams way. The way he brings 3 subs on and refuses to change tactics and seemingly believes a change of personnel will bring the required result. The way he simply refuses to say we were beaten/outplayed by a better team on occasions when it is glaringly obvious that we have been. The way he signs players that are clearly not Arsenal quality and then expects them to be able to play like Barcelona!
On numerous occasions i have sat in the ground listening to fans berating players for coming up short, of which Bentner springs to mind but it is never that players fault he is playing for Arsenal. That decision was taken by Wenger and i often think that those players must have been laughing their heads off almost thinking "Ive landed on my feet being here, im punching well above my weight but until otherwise i will just carry on!" These players are good footballers who would do a job for a Norwich or a Stoke or a Swansea but are they good enough for Arsenal? No.
Where do we go from here though, i still just cannot see us winning the title this year and yet this will be not only the best chance but also the last chance we have at winning it for many years in my opinion. What with Pep arriving at City and Jose looking likely to end up at Old Trafford then this has to be our best chance but i am sure we will inevitably come up short im afraid.
However, and it is a big however, just who does replace Mr W? Will the board pay the big money to bring in a huge name manager and will they pay the huge money that that particular manager wants to spend on new players? Im not so sure they will so therefore do we plod on with Wenger?
Mrs DeGuissons family are all Charlton season ticket holders and i am by no means comparing Arsenal to Charlton but a few seasons back when they had Curbs at the helm and they were finishing regularly in the mid table of the Prem they thought they could get rid of him and put someone else in who could push the team on to further glory. What happened, they went backwards and are now surely going to slip out of the championship. Is what they didn't realize at the time was that under Curbs it was the best it was going to be, it was the pinnacle for them and yet they didn't know it. And right now that is one of my underlying fears about Arsenal. Is this the best it can be? Should we be grateful for what we have right now?
Only time will tell, but if we replace Wenger and put A. N. Other in charge and we go backwards a la Man Utd currently are will we all look back on these heady days with fondness??
For the time being though the stadium will still be full week in and week out!
Good post and welcome.
However in term of the highlighted bit i refer back to my previous post.
You use Charlton as a reference but I could use Chelsea in favour of the opposite argument, at times when Chelsea have been doing comfortably well their owner has decided enough is enough he wants more and has gone and got a better manager and improved things. I'm fairly sure other top teams have done the same.
Look at City this season still in the CL and near the top of a very winnable league but they don't think Pelegrini is good enough and have gone for better, they have the balls to take a chance with an admitably excellent manager but there is no guarantee of success.
As i said it all comes back to fear as far as our club is concerned, many of the fans and i feel some board members are culpable even if they wont admit it
BFG4 wrote:fabiandeguisson welcome to the forum. I agree with most of your post, but the going backwards fear is one I don't buy into. Let's be realistic, the board clearly don't give a shit about football, but they aren't the ones putting a shackle on transfer funds, its Wenger who constantly refuses to spend, in-fact he even said if he was given 100 Million, he would give it back. the reality is that we have thrown away several league titles because Wenger refused to spend the money available. The board are guilty of prioritising money over on field success, but they don't prevent Wenger from spending, so with another manager, I would expect at the very least, a better approach to the transfer market. Combine that with a modern day view to tactics, and training methods that aren't pre-historic and it wouldn't be too hard to find a better manager than Wenger. Also, if you think we wont slide with Wenger here, well it's going to happen sooner or later. Just think of the PL managerial line up's that are probable next season. Guardiola in at City, Mourinho more than likely in at United, Simeone possibly in at Chelsea, and Klopp in his 2nd season with L'pool. There is a massive chance that we will struggle to make the top 4 next season. Oh, and if we don't win the league this season, expect us to be looking for replacements for Ozil and Sanchez.
No this is not the best it can be. We should be matching Barcelona, not bowing down to them. We were promised to be challenging Europe's elite. We haven't progressed in 5 years. I respect Wenger for what he's done, how he has done it, and delivering a top 4 finish consistently for 20 years with average players. However, we need to change and move forward. It should be Barca, Real Madrid, Bayern and Arsenal. We are paying elite prices for Europa league standard football.
fabiandeguisson wrote:My first ever thread on this forum although i have been a regular reader for many moons now so finally hello all.
The bottom line is that Wenger is the boards dream! And this is for a number of reasons but mainly i would think that they stem from purely business and financial reasons which would be:
1) He spends relatively small money in comparison to others therefore saving big money!
2) He has achieved Champions league football for the last 18 successive seasons which brings big money!
3) Despite very limited success on the pitch for the last decade the stadium is full week in and week out so big money continues to come in despite relative failure!
Therefore from these 3 reasons alone the club/business is a success and that surely is their bottom line and i think that if a trophy happens to come along then that is just an added bonus!
I find Wenger as frustrating as the next man, the lack of a plan B when things are not going the teams way. The way he brings 3 subs on and refuses to change tactics and seemingly believes a change of personnel will bring the required result. The way he simply refuses to say we were beaten/outplayed by a better team on occasions when it is glaringly obvious that we have been. The way he signs players that are clearly not Arsenal quality and then expects them to be able to play like Barcelona!
On numerous occasions i have sat in the ground listening to fans berating players for coming up short, of which Bentner springs to mind but it is never that players fault he is playing for Arsenal. That decision was taken by Wenger and i often think that those players must have been laughing their heads off almost thinking "Ive landed on my feet being here, im punching well above my weight but until otherwise i will just carry on!" These players are good footballers who would do a job for a Norwich or a Stoke or a Swansea but are they good enough for Arsenal? No.
Where do we go from here though, i still just cannot see us winning the title this year and yet this will be not only the best chance but also the last chance we have at winning it for many years in my opinion. What with Pep arriving at City and Jose looking likely to end up at Old Trafford then this has to be our best chance but i am sure we will inevitably come up short im afraid.
However, and it is a big however, just who does replace Mr W? Will the board pay the big money to bring in a huge name manager and will they pay the huge money that that particular manager wants to spend on new players? Im not so sure they will so therefore do we plod on with Wenger?
Mrs DeGuissons family are all Charlton season ticket holders and i am by no means comparing Arsenal to Charlton but a few seasons back when they had Curbs at the helm and they were finishing regularly in the mid table of the Prem they thought they could get rid of him and put someone else in who could push the team on to further glory. What happened, they went backwards and are now surely going to slip out of the championship. Is what they didn't realize at the time was that under Curbs it was the best it was going to be, it was the pinnacle for them and yet they didn't know it. And right now that is one of my underlying fears about Arsenal. Is this the best it can be? Should we be grateful for what we have right now?
Only time will tell, but if we replace Wenger and put A. N. Other in charge and we go backwards a la Man Utd currently are will we all look back on these heady days with fondness??
For the time being though the stadium will still be full week in and week out!
That is my biggest concern. That's why I believe we will end up with someone similar to Arsene.
I'm not concerned by the the thought of what will happen when Wenger goes. History is not only limited to the "Moyes" situation and there are doubtless hundreds of corporations who have successfully managed transitions. Don't worry guys.
Ikechukwu1 wrote:
10. I asked you if Wenger would "be a club legend" if he managed to finish the season below the Spuds. Who was the last Arsenal manager to do that then?
You've also done the classic AKB thing of talking down GG achievements. To my mind, signing someone like Sanogo might as well be a bung in itself. Graham was a great manager who overachieved on a shoestring budget. He was never paid the obscene wages this charlatan Wenger is. If you don't know your Arsenal history and if you genuinely think Wenger's incompetence is down to the board then I laugh....
oops!
Yeah GG once finished below them (ignore that he was booted out before he got a chance to see the season out then yeah?) - does that take away from the main point, which is that he overachieved on his funds? And does it change the point on what he achieved? Considering his resources? No? Ok then...
This is too easy. Now, slowly take both your feet out of your mouth and take a look at the PL table for the season 1992-93. I think you'll find GG was in charge for that entire season. No? Ok then...
Did I hear someone whisper the word "credibility"...? was it BDB...?
xisstential wrote:What is mostly overlooked with Wenger is that he very seldom splashes big, we all know that. What he does do is buy cheap, hoping to unearth a gem.... BUT then, 90% of the time we get the Arteta's, Sanogo's, Walcotts, Girouds, who end up on ridiculous wages and then we cannot get rid of them. What club in the world would pay Walcott 140k per week??? So now he's stuck with this dross, he's overpaying them and there is no way out.... so he does the only thing people like him do... he plays them AND he defends them, even trying to convince us how great they are. We might not lay out big money in single transactions but tot up our weekly wage bill, then look at how little bang we are getting for our buck
TOF's 'Socialist Wage Structure' in action
Chinae wrote:He is there because he fulfils the minimum requirement of the club's owners as has been said above. The club has become too much of a business entity than a football club . It's not just Wenger who should take the blame but the board aswell. I admire him for what he has done but now its time to move on and he can take some of the board members aswell with him. He will always be a club legend though
I agree with most of your post, but I cannot agree that The Old Fraud will always be a club legend - He ruined that sometime between 2008-11 and it gets worse with every passing year. He ruined his legacy by becoming power-mad and refusing to improve the team with the resources we have, his obsession with frustrating sideways football and wasting wages on average players ever since we moved to Cashburton.
Welcome
Chinae wrote:I totally agree with you with the first para. I want him gone too but I don't hate him. And I do understand why fans are angry but anger makes us lose our perspective.
I believe Arsene CANNOT take that one big step to the elite level and there aren't too many who can do that. Arsene is a good manager but not an elite one.
I and others hate him because he refuses to use the resources we clearly have. I belive that TOF WILL NOT take that step to the elite level because he selfishly wants to do it his way or no way. The man has been exposed as a coward and an utter fraud. Eighteen seasons of failure in the Champions League and counting.
Ikechukwu1 wrote:You've also done the classic AKB thing of talking down GG achievements. To my mind, signing someone like Sanogo might as well be a bung in itself. Graham was a great manager who overachieved on a shoestring budget. He was never paid the obscene wages this charlatan Wenger is. If you don't know your Arsenal history and if you genuinely think Wenger's incompetence is down to the board then I laugh...
I don't like to see GG's achievements downplayed either. TOF's 'trophies per season average' has been shot to fuck by the nine year drought. Plus GG has one more European trophy than TOF will ever have. The man deserves a statue one day (despite managing the Scum).
armchair wrote:Unfortunately I cant agree that Wenger is even a good manager. And the reason is simple and obvious.
He simply refuses to use all the resources made available to him by the club to improve us.
A good manager, a great manager or even a poor manager would bust a gut, go all out trying to make us better. Give everything. Nothing left.
Wengers cowardice wont allow him to do that because if it didnt work out then the money spent would become an issue as to why there wasnt more success.
As it stands now he is still lauded as a genius, rewarded with bumper contracts for NOT using all the resources he has. For NOT improving us. For NOT bringing more sucess. For hitting that top four spot and bringing us CL football and money of course.
It really is a crazy situation where he is applauded not questioned for lowering expections instead of raising them.
Fucking spot on, sir
DB10GOONER wrote:
Ikechukwu1 wrote:
10. I asked you if Wenger would "be a club legend" if he managed to finish the season below the Spuds. Who was the last Arsenal manager to do that then?
You've also done the classic AKB thing of talking down GG achievements. To my mind, signing someone like Sanogo might as well be a bung in itself. Graham was a great manager who overachieved on a shoestring budget. He was never paid the obscene wages this charlatan Wenger is. If you don't know your Arsenal history and if you genuinely think Wenger's incompetence is down to the board then I laugh....
oops!
To be fair, GG wasn't in charge for the last three months of the season
), George realised that he needed a new tactical blueprint to win in Europe (strong defence, packed midfield, lone striker, counter-attacks and setpieces), not unlike the method used by Chelsea in 2012. So basically it took George one failed season to work out what was needed to win a European trophy. Wenger hasn't learned what it takes in EIGHTEEN seasons. 
, what matters is we support the club 
. It's not just Wenger who should take the blame but the board aswell. I admire him for what he has done but now its time to move on and he can take some of the board members aswell with him. He will always be a club legend though
