THE WENGER THREAD

[DB10GOONER]

There's no question that George was just as much of a dictator as TOF, but he wouldn't have tolerated any of the shit that TOF does. He always tried to win the league and when he didn't, he'd usually win us a trophy, despite the poor football in his later seasons. He also built and coached the back five from scratch (and did TOF a massive fucking favour in the process).

The only Arsenal manager to win the Cup Winners Cup and the League Cup

And when Arsenal were horribly exposed by Benfica in the European Cup ("naive", you might say ), George realised that he needed a new tactical blueprint to win in Europe (strong defence, packed midfield, lone striker, counter-attacks and setpieces), not unlike the method used by Chelsea in 2012. So basically it took George one failed season to work out what was needed to win a European trophy. Wenger hasn't learned what it takes in EIGHTEEN seasons.

Good point. But then if GG was anything he was a true master tactician. His team talk to the players at Anfield 89 was along the lines of "don't panic. Just don't let them score in the first half and we will score 2 in the second half."

From an interview with "Number 1 is" Perry Groves;

“It was a cup final where we were the unbelievable underdogs. There are not many cup finals where you go in two goals down basically. But having to win by two clear goals took the pressure off completely because nobody gave us a chance. And to be honest, not many of the players believed we could go and win by two clear goals. The only one who really 100 per cent believed we could was George Graham.

“He gave us our team-talk when we went in on the Wednesday, and said: ‘I really fancy our chances’. The players looked at each other and thought ‘Is he going mad?’ He said, ‘I’ve thought about the game, and we’re going to play a sweeper’, and a lot of people forget, we always played 4-4-2, that was our system, that was the way we trained. David O’Leary was brought in to play as the spare man at the back, and we all thought: ‘He has gone mad, because we’ve got to go and win by two clear goals, but he’s playing an extra defender.'

"At the time it didn’t make sense, but it was tactical genius because his plan was to get in at half-time 0-0. ‘If we concede the first goal we’re finished,’ he said. ‘You ain’t going to score three. It just doesn’t happen [at Anfield]. But if we get in at half-time 0-0 we’ve won half the battle, and then we’ll have a chat at half-time and I fancy us to nick a goal in the second half, and if we do then it’s all about momentum, pressure gets to people. If we can score, the momentum will change and all the pressure then goes on Liverpool.’

“When we got into half-time 0-0, he was ecstatic, he said: ‘Brilliant, keep nice and steady at the back, stay nice and calm, see if we can get [Paul] Merson and Smudger [Alan Smith] into the game, I fancy us strongly to get a goal. If we nick a goal it’s game on. Trust me, they will start to panic and the nerves will set in.’

“George had said: ‘If we go one goal up I can make some changes, take a defender off and we’ll go 4-4-2 and put Martin Hayes on and then we’ll put Perry Groves on and then we’ll really go for it, the gloves are off then, we’ve got a great chance and I’ll think we’ll win it.’

[Wilson]

Whats wrong with a 0-0 and going to the Nou Camp knowing if we score 1, Barcelona need 2, or if we score 2, Barcelona need 3?

Last year against Monaco, we go 2-0 down, but pull one back late, although rather than admit we had a bad night and accept the 2-1 loss, we go all out for a second and get counter attacked and give away another away goal. Reversing a 2-1 deficit at Monaco was possible, but 3-1 made it that much harder.

Why did we chase a goal at 0-0 against Barcelona, and why did we chase an equalizer last season against Monaco? On both occasions we blindly pursued a goal with a total disregard for the fact the other team could at any stage go down the other end and score. There was no reason for urgency in either game to get that late goal, given there was still a second leg to play.

The players are naive, they have no in game management. They didnt think, that in the games against Monaco and Barcelona, the tie could not be won in the last 10 minutes if we scored, but it will almost certainly be lost if we conceded (which is the case on both occasions). The players are just not switched on enough to realise this. Paul Merson had this analysis last season after the Monaco game - basically said chasing 2-2 was not worth the risk of going 3-1 down. He called the team naive, Wenger got wound up and personally hit back at Merson. So a year on, we make the same mistake, and Wenger calls the team naive. So Merson is 12 months ahead of Wenger in his analysis that this Arsenal team has no in game management.

When Paul Merson has the jump on you, and can identify faults within your own team from the commentary box, then its know Fing wonder Wenger has his growing critics

[DB10GOONER]

Whats wrong with a 0-0 and going to the Nou Camp knowing if we score 1, Barcelona need 2, or if we score 2, Barcelona need 3?

Last year against Monaco, we go 2-0 down, but pull one back late, although rather than admit we had a bad night and accept the 2-1 loss, we go all out for a second and get counter attacked and give away another away goal. Reversing a 2-1 deficit at Monaco was possible, but 3-1 made it that much harder.

Why did we chase a goal at 0-0 against Barcelona, and why did we chase an equalizer last season against Monaco? On both occasions we blindly pursued a goal with a total disregard for the fact the other team could at any stage go down the other end and score. There was no reason for urgency in either game to get that late goal, given there was still a second leg to play.

The players are naive, they have no in game management. They didnt think, that in the games against Monaco and Barcelona, the tie could not be won in the last 10 minutes if we scored, but it will almost certainly be lost if we conceded (which is the case on both occasions). The players are just not switched on enough to realise this. Paul Merson had this analysis last season after the Monaco game - basically said chasing 2-2 was not worth the risk of going 3-1 down. He called the team naive, Wenger got wound up and personally hit back at Merson. So a year on, we make the same mistake, and Wenger calls the team naive. So Merson is 12 months ahead of Wenger in his analysis that this Arsenal team has no in game management.

When Paul Merson has the jump on you, and can identify faults within your own team from the commentary box, then its know Fing wonder Wenger has his growing critics

In game management is deffo Wenger's responsibility. To go back to GG, how many times did we see him on the touchline yelling at a player that wasn't following the plan? How often have we seen Wenger do that? We cannot blame the players alone for this. Leadership and direction must come from the manager in the first instance.

[Wilson]

Whats wrong with a 0-0 and going to the Nou Camp knowing if we score 1, Barcelona need 2, or if we score 2, Barcelona need 3?

Last year against Monaco, we go 2-0 down, but pull one back late, although rather than admit we had a bad night and accept the 2-1 loss, we go all out for a second and get counter attacked and give away another away goal. Reversing a 2-1 deficit at Monaco was possible, but 3-1 made it that much harder.

Why did we chase a goal at 0-0 against Barcelona, and why did we chase an equalizer last season against Monaco? On both occasions we blindly pursued a goal with a total disregard for the fact the other team could at any stage go down the other end and score. There was no reason for urgency in either game to get that late goal, given there was still a second leg to play.

The players are naive, they have no in game management. They didnt think, that in the games against Monaco and Barcelona, the tie could not be won in the last 10 minutes if we scored, but it will almost certainly be lost if we conceded (which is the case on both occasions). The players are just not switched on enough to realise this. Paul Merson had this analysis last season after the Monaco game - basically said chasing 2-2 was not worth the risk of going 3-1 down. He called the team naive, Wenger got wound up and personally hit back at Merson. So a year on, we make the same mistake, and Wenger calls the team naive. So Merson is 12 months ahead of Wenger in his analysis that this Arsenal team has no in game management.

When Paul Merson has the jump on you, and can identify faults within your own team from the commentary box, then its know Fing wonder Wenger has his growing critics

In game management is deffo Wenger's responsibility. To go back to GG, how many times did we see him on the touchline yelling at a player that wasn't following the plan? How often have we seen Wenger do that? We cannot blame the players alone for this. Leadership and direction must come from the manager in the first instance.

To a degree it is, but the players need to be mostly responsible for in game management. Look at Chelsea, they almost won the CL with Avram Grant, and won it with Di Matteo. That was the Cech-Terry-Cole-Lampard-Drogba spine, and they managed themselves, they knew how to win, and didnt need guidance from the manager, evident by the fact they were managed by novice caretaker managers

So in game management is something the players are primarily responsible for. Although it should start off the pitch with the manager facilitating it. Jose was responsible for much of Chelsea's success even after he was gone, because he built and established the Chelsea machine.

Wengers passive attitude with he captaincy (is Theo really going to be the captain next season - WTF!!!). Wenger's passive attitude on the touchline as you noted, and his soft approach overall, really does not facilitate a culture of responsibility.

Naivety is something you lose when you grow up. Do our players grow under Wenger in terms of mentality? Sure he can teach them to play a crisp passing style, but given our team is naive, whats Wenger doing to iron out the naivety?

You cant blame youth, as our team isnt that young anymore.

[StuartL]

Whats wrong with a 0-0 and going to the Nou Camp knowing if we score 1, Barcelona need 2, or if we score 2, Barcelona need 3?

Last year against Monaco, we go 2-0 down, but pull one back late, although rather than admit we had a bad night and accept the 2-1 loss, we go all out for a second and get counter attacked and give away another away goal. Reversing a 2-1 deficit at Monaco was possible, but 3-1 made it that much harder.

Why did we chase a goal at 0-0 against Barcelona, and why did we chase an equalizer last season against Monaco? On both occasions we blindly pursued a goal with a total disregard for the fact the other team could at any stage go down the other end and score. There was no reason for urgency in either game to get that late goal, given there was still a second leg to play.

The players are naive, they have no in game management. They didnt think, that in the games against Monaco and Barcelona, the tie could not be won in the last 10 minutes if we scored, but it will almost certainly be lost if we conceded (which is the case on both occasions). The players are just not switched on enough to realise this. Paul Merson had this analysis last season after the Monaco game - basically said chasing 2-2 was not worth the risk of going 3-1 down. He called the team naive, Wenger got wound up and personally hit back at Merson. So a year on, we make the same mistake, and Wenger calls the team naive. So Merson is 12 months ahead of Wenger in his analysis that this Arsenal team has no in game management.

When Paul Merson has the jump on you, and can identify faults within your own team from the commentary box, then its know Fing wonder Wenger has his growing critics

I was thinking this very thing yesterday.

It is a 2 legged tie, so the least you want is to come out of the first leg with some semblance of opportunity to progress.

0-0 would not have been a bad result, as in the 2nd leg any scoring draw would have seen us through.

In the last 5 seasons we have effectively been out after the first leg

4-0 Milan
1-3 Munich
0-2 Munich
1-3 Monaco
0-2 Barca

so much for Wenker learning from his (and the team's) mistakes

This is piss-poor management but nobody pulls him up on it as reaching the knock out phase is his target and his only concern.

[xisstential]

Whats wrong with a 0-0 and going to the Nou Camp knowing if we score 1, Barcelona need 2, or if we score 2, Barcelona need 3?

Last year against Monaco, we go 2-0 down, but pull one back late, although rather than admit we had a bad night and accept the 2-1 loss, we go all out for a second and get counter attacked and give away another away goal. Reversing a 2-1 deficit at Monaco was possible, but 3-1 made it that much harder.

Why did we chase a goal at 0-0 against Barcelona, and why did we chase an equalizer last season against Monaco? On both occasions we blindly pursued a goal with a total disregard for the fact the other team could at any stage go down the other end and score. There was no reason for urgency in either game to get that late goal, given there was still a second leg to play.

The players are naive, they have no in game management. They didnt think, that in the games against Monaco and Barcelona, the tie could not be won in the last 10 minutes if we scored, but it will almost certainly be lost if we conceded (which is the case on both occasions). The players are just not switched on enough to realise this. Paul Merson had this analysis last season after the Monaco game - basically said chasing 2-2 was not worth the risk of going 3-1 down. He called the team naive, Wenger got wound up and personally hit back at Merson. So a year on, we make the same mistake, and Wenger calls the team naive. So Merson is 12 months ahead of Wenger in his analysis that this Arsenal team has no in game management.

When Paul Merson has the jump on you, and can identify faults within your own team from the commentary box, then its know Fing wonder Wenger has his growing critics

In game management is deffo Wenger's responsibility. To go back to GG, how many times did we see him on the touchline yelling at a player that wasn't following the plan? How often have we seen Wenger do that? We cannot blame the players alone for this. Leadership and direction must come from the manager in the first instance.

The only time Wenger gets off his arse is to berate the 4th official for something one of our players has done wrong. He is completely irrelevant, would we play worse if he wasn't there?? I doubt it.

[augie]

Whats wrong with a 0-0 and going to the Nou Camp knowing if we score 1, Barcelona need 2, or if we score 2, Barcelona need 3?

Last year against Monaco, we go 2-0 down, but pull one back late, although rather than admit we had a bad night and accept the 2-1 loss, we go all out for a second and get counter attacked and give away another away goal. Reversing a 2-1 deficit at Monaco was possible, but 3-1 made it that much harder.

Why did we chase a goal at 0-0 against Barcelona, and why did we chase an equalizer last season against Monaco? On both occasions we blindly pursued a goal with a total disregard for the fact the other team could at any stage go down the other end and score. There was no reason for urgency in either game to get that late goal, given there was still a second leg to play.

The players are naive, they have no in game management. They didnt think, that in the games against Monaco and Barcelona, the tie could not be won in the last 10 minutes if we scored, but it will almost certainly be lost if we conceded (which is the case on both occasions). The players are just not switched on enough to realise this. Paul Merson had this analysis last season after the Monaco game - basically said chasing 2-2 was not worth the risk of going 3-1 down. He called the team naive, Wenger got wound up and personally hit back at Merson. So a year on, we make the same mistake, and Wenger calls the team naive. So Merson is 12 months ahead of Wenger in his analysis that this Arsenal team has no in game management.

When Paul Merson has the jump on you, and can identify faults within your own team from the commentary box, then its know Fing wonder Wenger has his growing critics

In game management is deffo Wenger's responsibility. To go back to GG, how many times did we see him on the touchline yelling at a player that wasn't following the plan? How often have we seen Wenger do that? We cannot blame the players alone for this. Leadership and direction must come from the manager in the first instance.

To a degree it is, but the players need to be mostly responsible for in game management. Look at Chelsea, they almost won the CL with Avram Grant, and won it with Di Matteo. That was the Cech-Terry-Cole-Lampard-Drogba spine, and they managed themselves, they knew how to win, and didnt need guidance from the manager, evident by the fact they were managed by novice caretaker managers

So in game management is something the players are primarily responsible for. Although it should start off the pitch with the manager facilitating it. Jose was responsible for much of Chelsea's success even after he was gone, because he built and established the Chelsea machine.

Wengers passive attitude with he captaincy (is Theo really going to be the captain next season - WTF!!!). Wenger's passive attitude on the touchline as you noted, and his soft approach overall, really does not facilitate a culture of responsibility.

Naivety is something you lose when you grow up. Do our players grow under Wenger in terms of mentality? Sure he can teach them to play a crisp passing style, but given our team is naive, whats Wenger doing to iron out the naivety?

You cant blame youth, as our team isnt that young anymore.

Wilson, a quick look back through history and you will see that le cock does not tolerate having his opinions/instructions being questioned - if you cross wenker then your days at AFC are over

[Henry Norris 1913]

I know it sounds a bit petty but I think having the first leg at home can be a massive disadvantage. You want to get a 0-0 away then win the tie at home, not having to do the chasing in the first leg.

[armchair]

augie its total nonsense anyway to suggest that anyone other than the manager is responsible for "in game management" ffs.

Next the apologists will be suggesting its the players themselves who decide to be subbed off and on at 70 mins.

Like I said - just throw anything out there, any old shite at all to absolve Wenger of at least some blame.

[Ikechukwu1]

10. I asked you if Wenger would "be a club legend" if he managed to finish the season below the Spuds. Who was the last Arsenal manager to do that then?

You've also done the classic AKB thing of talking down GG achievements. To my mind, signing someone like Sanogo might as well be a bung in itself. Graham was a great manager who overachieved on a shoestring budget. He was never paid the obscene wages this charlatan Wenger is. If you don't know your Arsenal history and if you genuinely think Wenger's incompetence is down to the board then I laugh....

oops!

Yeah GG once finished below them (ignore that he was booted out before he got a chance to see the season out then yeah?) - does that take away from the main point, which is that he overachieved on his funds? And does it change the point on what he achieved? Considering his resources? No? Ok then...

This is too easy. Now, slowly take both your feet out of your mouth and take a look at the PL table for the season 1992-93. I think you'll find GG was in charge for that entire season. No? Ok then...

Did I hear someone whisper the word "credibility"...? was it BDB...?

Aaaah yes "credibility". I'm glad you chose to quote BDB - a man who thinks the central Madrid government have been wiping out Barca's debts, even though anyone with GCSE politics would know that Madrid governments don't help secessionist regimes
Or perhaps you mean like people who claim that Inter Milan fans who slated Podolski for being shite couldn't be listened to since some of their fans were once slated by UEFA for racist incidents?


I made a mistake with my timeline obviously. Something that can be done without checking Google, as your wonderful brain managed! We won the LC that season so shoulda been the trigger, it's a mistake.

But yeah. Getting "credibility" from someone like you, a font of footballing knowledge, is definitely the objective


How's the Galatassaray bench going for Podolski btw?

[xisstential]

I know it sounds a bit petty but I think having the first leg at home can be a massive disadvantage. You want to get a 0-0 away then win the tie at home, not having to do the chasing in the first leg.

Simple... win your group..... Something completely beyond us.

[DB10GOONER]

I made a mistake with my timeline obviously.

Not the first time though, huh?

[Ikechukwu1]

I made a mistake with my timeline obviously.

Not the first time though, huh?

Yes. Unlike Mr Perspicacity here. Podolski still killing it I take it?
I'm just gonna leave it. Like having a discourse with Trump now...

[BFG4]

Whats wrong with a 0-0 and going to the Nou Camp knowing if we score 1, Barcelona need 2, or if we score 2, Barcelona need 3?

Last year against Monaco, we go 2-0 down, but pull one back late, although rather than admit we had a bad night and accept the 2-1 loss, we go all out for a second and get counter attacked and give away another away goal. Reversing a 2-1 deficit at Monaco was possible, but 3-1 made it that much harder.

Why did we chase a goal at 0-0 against Barcelona, and why did we chase an equalizer last season against Monaco? On both occasions we blindly pursued a goal with a total disregard for the fact the other team could at any stage go down the other end and score. There was no reason for urgency in either game to get that late goal, given there was still a second leg to play.

The players are naive, they have no in game management. They didnt think, that in the games against Monaco and Barcelona, the tie could not be won in the last 10 minutes if we scored, but it will almost certainly be lost if we conceded (which is the case on both occasions). The players are just not switched on enough to realise this. Paul Merson had this analysis last season after the Monaco game - basically said chasing 2-2 was not worth the risk of going 3-1 down. He called the team naive, Wenger got wound up and personally hit back at Merson. So a year on, we make the same mistake, and Wenger calls the team naive. So Merson is 12 months ahead of Wenger in his analysis that this Arsenal team has no in game management.

When Paul Merson has the jump on you, and can identify faults within your own team from the commentary box, then its know Fing wonder Wenger has his growing critics

When I look at Wenger's more successful years, not only did he posses quality players, but hugely intelligent players who knew how to adapt their game, depending on how it was going. Having leaders like PV4 on the pitch made a huge difference to our chances of success. One of the problems with having players like Ramsey or Giroud is they play without having the intelligence to adapt their play depending on how the game is going. Also, having a coward like BFG as captain and pretending he is a leader, is like having Giroud and pretending he is a world class striker.

[GoonerMuzz]

Whats wrong with a 0-0 and going to the Nou Camp knowing if we score 1, Barcelona need 2, or if we score 2, Barcelona need 3?

Last year against Monaco, we go 2-0 down, but pull one back late, although rather than admit we had a bad night and accept the 2-1 loss, we go all out for a second and get counter attacked and give away another away goal. Reversing a 2-1 deficit at Monaco was possible, but 3-1 made it that much harder.

Why did we chase a goal at 0-0 against Barcelona, and why did we chase an equalizer last season against Monaco? On both occasions we blindly pursued a goal with a total disregard for the fact the other team could at any stage go down the other end and score. There was no reason for urgency in either game to get that late goal, given there was still a second leg to play.

The players are naive, they have no in game management. They didnt think, that in the games against Monaco and Barcelona, the tie could not be won in the last 10 minutes if we scored, but it will almost certainly be lost if we conceded (which is the case on both occasions). The players are just not switched on enough to realise this. Paul Merson had this analysis last season after the Monaco game - basically said chasing 2-2 was not worth the risk of going 3-1 down. He called the team naive, Wenger got wound up and personally hit back at Merson. So a year on, we make the same mistake, and Wenger calls the team naive. So Merson is 12 months ahead of Wenger in his analysis that this Arsenal team has no in game management.

When Paul Merson has the jump on you, and can identify faults within your own team from the commentary box, then its know Fing wonder Wenger has his growing critics

When I look at Wenger's more successful years, not only did he posses quality players, but hugely intelligent players who knew how to adapt their game, depending on how it was going. Having leaders like PV4 on the pitch made a huge difference to our chances of success. One of the problems with having players like Ramsey or Giroud is they play without having the intelligence to adapt their play depending on how the game is going. Also, having a coward like BFG as captain and pretending he is a leader, is like having Giroud and pretending he is a world class striker.

I think another problem is that at least some of our current players have been under Wengers tutelage for too long, under Wenger during the successful years you had some players who had obviously had decent coaching elsewhere before coming to us or under previous Aresenal Managers/Coaches. Some of our long term players, although they are not the only ones, have really obvious bad habits which no matter how you cut it have either been ignored or encouraged by Wenger.

As a coach if not a manger part of your job is to remove bad habits and coach the players to have footballing intelligence something that is blatantly deficient in some of our players. Now i know some people will say you can't coach footballing intelligence but that's balls, you can what you can't do is create it, and players without it should never get into a top team never mind a Premier League team and therefore we come full circle to the Manager and coaches not doing their jobs.

For years i've seen frustrated managers standing on the touchline at all levels screaming at players about positioning, passing, you name it, because in the heat of a match and trust me i've been guilty of this as a player, you can get blinkered and forget everything you were told beforehand and that is where the manager steps in to regain control. How often do you see AW doing that?

Former players have said that once you're on the pitch AW expects you to get on with it. Now that's ok if you have at least a couple of well respected, cool headed and loud voiced players on the pitch which our early AW teams had in spades. We all know that is something we seriously lack amongst our players and once again that falls back on the manager and therefore he needs to be the one telling the players what to do during the match, which he definitely does not do often enough.