As we're unlikely to see terraces again at football, this is the virtual equivalent where you can chat to your hearts content about all football matters and, obviously, Arsenal in particular. This forum encourages all Gooners to visit and contribute so please keep it respectful, clean and topical.
DB10GOONER wrote:Arsene's famed youth "policy" just keeps churning out the average players by the dozen!
That's a bit harsh. La Masia and La Fabrica have produced plenty of average players too. It's impossible for every graduate to be a first-class player. So we can criticise Arsenal's academy for not producing enough first-class players but not for producing average players. The latter is inevitable.
I don't think that's harsh enough! Wenger is supposedly famed for bringing youngsters through it's some kind of urban myth imo, like his shit training methods, shit scouting system and shit medical team. I really can't see what he brings to the club anymore!
don't think your standards are realistic Frank:
you think Cesc is a failure/loser, IMO he's one of the world's best midfielders.
Ca$hley was for the best part of a decade the World's top player in his position
Number 5 wrote: Ok, lets take the example of the best player in my team. He isn't signed to an academy right now. And hasn't been since he first started kicking a ball.
In September he starts secondary school. Should he get signed in the next year or two, by your definition he will have been picked up late. But in reality he has been on the radar of the professional football teams for many years. Scouts at all the football tournaments we enter don't come to watch the 12-15 year olds as they are already aware of the ones who have promise. They come to see the 7-10 year olds and what promise they have. And if they can be developed. Yeah you'll get the odd player who slips through and hasn't been spotted until into his mid teens. But I know that is fucking rare. I'd say at least 80% of the English kids that go onto professional football academies were spotted before they hit double digits in age.
The club I work with are FA Charter Standard and recognised one step further as a development club. No where near what I would term to be semi-pro. The club I would term to be semi pro, as they have a mens team in god knows what lower league level, hold trials for new players every year. For under 7's, under 8's and under 9's. Only.
My perspective is a little different. I would agree that a majority are spotted young, but when I was younger our team was one of the top two in our district league and I also played for the county schools team (useful but nothing like academy standard - decent players but trained once a week and played once a month with the odd friendly thrown in). We used to get scouts watching our local team's games against the other big teams in our league til 14 or 15, and we not only had scouts at pretty much all the county games but also played friendlies against a few academy sides who would then pinch our best players. During this time Swansea, Cardiff and Bristol Rovers all took on players from our county team and local league from the ages of 12-15 - to the extent that players getting picked up would decide our district league title some years by weakening teams.
I've also got two very good friends who played for Cardiff from about 8 til getting released at 16, and they both said that whilst there were a core group of players who remained there throughout, there was also a very transient element and there would be considerable personnel changes before and during the season every year until 15.
highburyJD wrote:don't think your standards are realistic Frank:
you think Cesc is a failure/loser, IMO he's one of the world's best midfielders.
Ca$hley was for the best part of a decade the World's top player in his position
So that's 2 players in what.... 16/17 seasons... 1 nicked from the Barca youth academy... yes I can see how you reckon this is a good return... ... and what did Cesc win for us precisely???
Number 5 wrote: Ok, lets take the example of the best player in my team. He isn't signed to an academy right now. And hasn't been since he first started kicking a ball.
In September he starts secondary school. Should he get signed in the next year or two, by your definition he will have been picked up late. But in reality he has been on the radar of the professional football teams for many years. Scouts at all the football tournaments we enter don't come to watch the 12-15 year olds as they are already aware of the ones who have promise. They come to see the 7-10 year olds and what promise they have. And if they can be developed. Yeah you'll get the odd player who slips through and hasn't been spotted until into his mid teens. But I know that is fucking rare. I'd say at least 80% of the English kids that go onto professional football academies were spotted before they hit double digits in age.
The club I work with are FA Charter Standard and recognised one step further as a development club. No where near what I would term to be semi-pro. The club I would term to be semi pro, as they have a mens team in god knows what lower league level, hold trials for new players every year. For under 7's, under 8's and under 9's. Only.
My perspective is a little different. I would agree that a majority are spotted young, but when I was younger our team was one of the top two in our district league and I also played for the county schools team (useful but nothing like academy standard - decent players but trained once a week and played once a month with the odd friendly thrown in). We used to get scouts watching our local team's games against the other big teams in our league til 14 or 15, and we not only had scouts at pretty much all the county games but also played friendlies against a few academy sides who would then pinch our best players. During this time Swansea, Cardiff and Bristol Rovers all took on players from our county team and local league from the ages of 12-15 - to the extent that players getting picked up would decide our district league title some years by weakening teams.
I've also got two very good friends who played for Cardiff from about 8 til getting released at 16, and they both said that whilst there were a core group of players who remained there throughout, there was also a very transient element and there would be considerable personnel changes before and during the season every year until 15.
Probably this is where its all changing then. I've been involved for 18 months and did level 1 almost exactly 12 months ago. Prior to that my only experiences were from when I played when I was younger.
Back then, as teams were looking first at physical attributes they could wait until a player got to 12, 13, 14 and bring them in. They have realised now though that this age is too late to develop the technical ability of a player and all the buzz in training circles is about capturing kids from 6, 7, 8, 9.
I'm looking to do my level 2 in September/October, will let you know what that promotes as its a lot more in depth than level 1.
Number 5 wrote: Ok, lets take the example of the best player in my team. He isn't signed to an academy right now. And hasn't been since he first started kicking a ball.
In September he starts secondary school. Should he get signed in the next year or two, by your definition he will have been picked up late. But in reality he has been on the radar of the professional football teams for many years. Scouts at all the football tournaments we enter don't come to watch the 12-15 year olds as they are already aware of the ones who have promise. They come to see the 7-10 year olds and what promise they have. And if they can be developed. Yeah you'll get the odd player who slips through and hasn't been spotted until into his mid teens. But I know that is fucking rare. I'd say at least 80% of the English kids that go onto professional football academies were spotted before they hit double digits in age.
The club I work with are FA Charter Standard and recognised one step further as a development club. No where near what I would term to be semi-pro. The club I would term to be semi pro, as they have a mens team in god knows what lower league level, hold trials for new players every year. For under 7's, under 8's and under 9's. Only.
My perspective is a little different. I would agree that a majority are spotted young, but when I was younger our team was one of the top two in our district league and I also played for the county schools team (useful but nothing like academy standard - decent players but trained once a week and played once a month with the odd friendly thrown in). We used to get scouts watching our local team's games against the other big teams in our league til 14 or 15, and we not only had scouts at pretty much all the county games but also played friendlies against a few academy sides who would then pinch our best players. During this time Swansea, Cardiff and Bristol Rovers all took on players from our county team and local league from the ages of 12-15 - to the extent that players getting picked up would decide our district league title some years by weakening teams.
I've also got two very good friends who played for Cardiff from about 8 til getting released at 16, and they both said that whilst there were a core group of players who remained there throughout, there was also a very transient element and there would be considerable personnel changes before and during the season every year until 15.
Probably this is where its all changing then. I've been involved for 18 months and did level 1 almost exactly 12 months ago. Prior to that my only experiences were from when I played when I was younger.
Back then, as teams were looking first at physical attributes they could wait until a player got to 12, 13, 14 and bring them in. They have realised now though that this age is too late to develop the technical ability of a player and all the buzz in training circles is about capturing kids from 6, 7, 8, 9.
I'm looking to do my level 2 in September/October, will let you know what that promotes as its a lot more in depth than level 1.
Yeah I have to admit that some of the policies regarding academy recruitment of players seemed baffling to me. I played in a junior team with a kid that was bigger, faster and stronger than everybody else but technically not gifted - and Cardiff picked him up at 12. Released him a year later because he was out of his depth and attitude stank. Then playing county schools football Swansea picked him up at 14, and the same thing happened within a year this time. My club at home plays at the top of the second tier in Wales and by the time this boy got to 18 he couldn't even nail down a place in our youth or ressies. To me that epitomises the problems in the past with academies.
Best of luck with the course. Participated in sessions for loads of coaching badges and I remember a day when people were doing the final assessment of their Goalkeeping Licence (probably B I think - they'd been doing it for nearly a year). They'd come from all over the country and 5 of the 6 had already failed (and knew this) at previous stages of the course. The one female coach who hadn't then made a really fundamental error in her coaching session and must have failed too - tough.
I also remember being a player when Ray Wilkins was doing one of his badges and one of my mates (15 or 16 at the time) megged him in one of the small-sided drills and called it. He was absolutely livid, didn't take it in good spirits at all.
Red Gunner wrote:
If a player spends some time in our youth system and/or makes his first professional appearance for us, he is our youth product. That's what UEFA and Wikipedia say, I know it's a very liberal definition but I agree with it.
That's kind of a cop out, isn't it? - you're relying on a technicality and not really giving an opinion on youth academies at all.
I thought we were discussing what we consider to be OUR academy... and your answer appears to include players not coached at all by Arsenal.
For example, a scenario that meets your criteria of being OUR youth product, would include...
1. an 18 year old, who has never played a professional game in his Barcelona career but has spent 12 years in the La Masia academy, signs for Arsenal and within a week or joining, comes on as 90th minute sub in a league game.
- by your logic, you're quite happy to claim him as a product of OUR academy even though he's never trained with our coaches and only arrived at the club a few days ago....?!
highburyJD wrote:don't think your standards are realistic Frank:
you think Cesc is a failure/loser, IMO he's one of the world's best midfielders.
Ca$hley was for the best part of a decade the World's top player in his position
So that's 2 players in what.... 16/17 seasons... 1 nicked from the Barca youth academy... yes I can see how you reckon this is a good return... ... and what did Cesc win for us precisely???
cesc won the fa cup in 2005 with us
we have a certain jack wilshere as well
highburyJD wrote:don't think your standards are realistic Frank:
you think Cesc is a failure/loser, IMO he's one of the world's best midfielders.
Ca$hley was for the best part of a decade the World's top player in his position
So that's 2 players in what.... 16/17 seasons... 1 nicked from the Barca youth academy... yes I can see how you reckon this is a good return... ... and what did Cesc win for us precisely???
cesc won the fa cup in 2005 with us
we have a certain jack wilshere as well
when people slate our 'famed youth academy' they, by extension, are slating our policy of buying foreign youth prospects
can't have it both ways - our academy has a disproportionately high budget
that's why it's a fair target for criticism
highburyJD wrote:don't think your standards are realistic Frank:
you think Cesc is a failure/loser, IMO he's one of the world's best midfielders.
Ca$hley was for the best part of a decade the World's top player in his position
So that's 2 players in what.... 16/17 seasons... 1 nicked from the Barca youth academy... yes I can see how you reckon this is a good return... ... and what did Cesc win for us precisely???
cesc won the fa cup in 2005 with us
we have a certain jack wilshere as well
oh... yeah and big whoop!!!
gave rather a big whoop when liam brady won his 1 and only trophy with us at the 1979 fa cup final
he came out of our youth academy as well
highburyJD wrote:don't think your standards are realistic Frank:
you think Cesc is a failure/loser, IMO he's one of the world's best midfielders.
Ca$hley was for the best part of a decade the World's top player in his position
So that's 2 players in what.... 16/17 seasons... 1 nicked from the Barca youth academy... yes I can see how you reckon this is a good return... ... and what did Cesc win for us precisely???
cesc won the fa cup in 2005 with us
we have a certain jack wilshere as well
oh... yeah and big whoop!!!
gave rather a big whoop when liam brady won his 1 and only trophy with us at the 1979 fa cup final
he came out of our youth academy as well
