The Gooner Forum

I Hate Hleb wrote:No worries Ram, we're used to it. After all, you are Australian!!

We have to live upside down! What do you expect?

Cockerill's chin wrote:As you have seen the initial soldiers who landed were disarmed. The young man with the head injury was taken below to have wounds tended.

Kidnapping is never an option because:

1. The aim was to highlight the blockade.

2. Kidnapping Israeli soldiers would be immoral and a propoganda gift to an Israeli Government desperate to justify the open air prison around Gaza

3. It would also justify the dehumanization of the all those involved in the struggle for Palestine as militants and animals.

4. It was never achievable. Those who disgracefully took Shilat were fundamentalist/armed militia. If you are going to take four Israeli soldiers you come to the party with more than a slingshot, especially when there are special ops in close proximity and many miles to reach shore.

Your view is embedded in your need to label all those who want to assist Palestine as flawed and aggressive. This is not the case Quartz. These people were stupid to make an amateur stand against the soldiers. The force with which they were met was completely out of line with the resistance offered. Sadly, though, this is not atypical of the aggression demonstrated by the Israeli military on numerous occassions.

The aim was to highlight the blockade but the guys that boarded in Turkey were very different from the people on the boat who had sailed from Europe. To concur with DB10, there were two different grouping on the flotilla.
They were Islamist mercenaries/member of IHH who as I said, had expressed wishes of martyrdom.
For them, and Hamas, the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers would be worth more than the highlighting of the blockade.
It could have been "justified" by them as a response to the commandos boarding the boat.

As I have shown, these IHH guys had substantially more than a slingshot.
"Israeli Aggression" is just a buzz-phrase that has been bandied about by opponents of Israel. Another one is "Disproportionate force".
That is a whole other discussion.

I also do not categorise all those who assist the Palestinians as aggressive or flawed individuals, because clearly the majority of people on the flotilla were peaceful.

RAM

The current state of Israel is a smaller than the land defined as the Holy Land. The Holy land would consist of the current state of Israel, Gaza, West Bank, Golan Heights, and a piece of land on the East of the Jordan river, roughly same size and shape as The West Bank.

That bit on the East of the Jordan is actually promised to Jews under prophecy, but not until the Messianic era.

In terms of the the actual size of the Kingdom in Bible times, under Kings David and Solomon, the Kingdom was roughly the same as modern Israel, but also stretched more to the North East into what today is Syria, and more to the North into what today is Lebanon.

I could not find the perfect map online, but hope these four help?

This is a map of modern Israel, clearly showing the disputed areas of Gaza, West Bank and the Golan Heights.





The map on this link gives an idea of the size of Israel.
If you were to draw a horizontal line from Tel Aviv on the Mediterranean sea, to the nearest point of the West Bank, it is just 11 miles.


http://www.zionism-israel.com/map_of_is ... tances.htm


This is a map of roughly what the Holy Land is defined as in the bible, coloured as the green area. Modern Israel's borders are highlighted in a dotted line, which includes Gaza, West Bank, Golan Heights inside the dotted line.





This map shows the biblical kingdoms of King David and King Solomon. It includes Gaza, West Bank, Golan Heights in green as part of modern Israel.

This is a really interesting thread and I'm delighted we've been able to keep it open and that everyone has been able to put their point across well and without resorting to personal insults. Well played Gooners, well played.

Thanks Quartz, a helpful explanation.

DB10GOONER wrote:This is a really interesting thread and I'm delighted we've been able to keep it open and that everyone has been able to put their point across well and without resorting to personal insults. Well played Gooners, well played.

Spot on, I know quite little on the subject and found this thread very interesting. And as DB said all well mannered and civil. Its whats makes this site great .....




vote for me as mod and long may it continue

I tend to steer well clear of threads like this, but:

QuartzGooner wrote:That bit on the East of the Jordan is actually promised to Jews under prophecy, but not until the Messianic era.

HAHAHA!! You're have a laugh, right?? That's up there with saying the 9/11 suicide Bombers are currently nuts deep in some of their 72 virgins

digger wrote:I tend to steer well clear of threads like this, but:

QuartzGooner wrote:That bit on the East of the Jordan is actually promised to Jews under prophecy, but not until the Messianic era.

HAHAHA!! You're have a laugh, right?? That's up there with saying the 9/11 suicide Bombers are currently nuts deep in some of their 72 virgins

Judaism has 13 principles of faith.
One is belief in Messiah.

Messianic era = absence of war between countries and acknowledgment of one G-D by the world.

In that era, the small bit of land formerly lived in by tribes of Edom, Moab and Ammon in biblical times, will be lived in by Jews.

digger wrote:



HAHAHA!! You're have a laugh, right?? That's up there with saying the 9/11 suicide Bombers are currently nuts deep in some of their 72 virgins

I like to think that, having not been promised female virgins, the warriors of Allah all get a funny, bearded surprise when they meet their 72 eternal lovers.

digger wrote:I tend to steer well clear of threads like this, but:

QuartzGooner wrote:That bit on the East of the Jordan is actually promised to Jews under prophecy, but not until the Messianic era.

HAHAHA!! You're have a laugh, right?? That's up there with saying the 9/11 suicide Bombers are currently nuts deep in some of their 72 virgins

Maybe they are. We don't know. And that is the the absolute heart of faith. Believing, having faith in something. I'm not very religious (lapsed Roman Catholic, like 99% of Oireland) but I sincerely respect anyone that is. It takes alot to have faith and it's easy to mock that.

RaM wrote:

digger wrote:



HAHAHA!! You're have a laugh, right?? That's up there with saying the 9/11 suicide Bombers are currently nuts deep in some of their 72 virgins

I like to think that, having not been promised female virgins, the warriors of Allah all get a funny, bearded surprise when they meet their 72 eternal lovers.

We can only hope RaM.

I hate fundamentalists and extremists of any faith or creed, be they Christian, Muslim, Jewish, white supremacist, Black power extremists...

Anyone that wants to torment, persecute or kill another person or people because they look different or believe different things is a fucking brain dead arsehole.