As we're unlikely to see terraces again at football, this is the virtual equivalent where you can chat to your hearts content about all football matters and, obviously, Arsenal in particular. This forum encourages all Gooners to visit and contribute so please keep it respectful, clean and topical.
Kiki wrote:To be a bit objectionable I think Irish fans tend to overrate Given. For my money, as far as Ireland goes, he's great in Qualifying stages of tourno's but when we do get to the next stage (WC 2002) I didnt really think he stood out tbh. Don't get me wrong, he an excellent keeper but you'd need to ask yourself at his early 30's why has no big team come in for him?
I know his brother, I always use to say to him Jens was a much better keeper!
He is playing behind a back line inc mc shane, o'shea and kilbane and used to play behind a backline including gary breen and ian harte.......what kind of miracles are you expecting the guy to produce kiki ?
augie wrote:
He is playing behind a back line inc mc shane, o'shea and kilbane and used to play behind a backline including gary breen and ian harte.......what kind of miracles are you expecting the guy to produce kiki ?
To be honest, Given has always confused me a little. If he's as good as his reputation suggests, then why has he never been signed by a big club???
Milan, Arsenal, Liverpool, ManUre, Barca, Inter, etc. have had numerous problems with finding a reliable, top quality 'keeper yet Given has remained at Newcastle, until Citeh finally prised him away.
Is he the best kept secret upon these shores, or is he a little overrated? - or were Newcastle simply not willing to sell at any price? or did he not want the stress of a big club??
Personally, I've not seen enough of him to say (although he's always looked very good when I've seen him) but something doesn't seem to add up... after all, he seems to have a very good temperament, so does he have a huge weakness in his game that people are keeping quiet about???
Kiki wrote:To be a bit objectionable I think Irish fans tend to overrate Given. For my money, as far as Ireland goes, he's great in Qualifying stages of tourno's but when we do get to the next stage (WC 2002) I didnt really think he stood out tbh. Don't get me wrong, he an excellent keeper but you'd need to ask yourself at his early 30's why has no big team come in for him?
I know his brother, I always use to say to him Jens was a much better keeper!
He is playing behind a back line inc mc shane, o'shea and kilbane and used to play behind a backline including gary breen and ian harte.......what kind of miracles are you expecting the guy to produce kiki ?
I take your point Augie, but Harte until the WC 2002 was quite good for Eire, in fact TOP SCORER in Qualifying! Gary Breen is a GOONER so I wont hear a bad word about him
Kiki wrote:To be a bit objectionable I think Irish fans tend to overrate Given. For my money, as far as Ireland goes, he's great in Qualifying stages of tourno's but when we do get to the next stage (WC 2002) I didnt really think he stood out tbh. Don't get me wrong, he an excellent keeper but you'd need to ask yourself at his early 30's why has no big team come in for him?
I know his brother, I always use to say to him Jens was a much better keeper!
That's my point.
Same argument, if a good player can't settle in one big club or many big clubs, does it mean that he is not a good player? Think of Dennis
Again did any big team like to sign Arshavin at his 27/28 (except us)? Is he not good enough? Oh well, you can say many reasons, but I can also defend Given in the same situation
The main answer to the 'why didn't Given move on sooner' question could simply be loyalty, to Newcastle and a succession of managers who had confidence in him starting with Kevin Keegan who first gave him his chance there.
I know that they've struggled the last 3/4 years but before that they've seriously threatened to win honours on several occasions.
Given has been one of the top goalies in the EPL for a decade - there is a reason for that.
I think a lot of people are missing something here, there are lots of decent keepers out there and I would even include Almunia in that category. Where they fail is in their ability to handle the pressure of big games and that is where Almunia comes undone big time.
Another example of this is David James, a very good keeper, yet everytime he gets his chance on the international stage he blows it usually in costly and embarrassing fashion.
I don't know what the solution is, if you buy a keeper from a smaller club, then you could end up with another Richard Wright.
If you buy proven international quality, then that will cost big money, unless you can spot a Van Der Saar type of oppurtunity.
I must say I thought the Shatkar Donetsk keeper looked handy on Friday night.
I agree with the point g88ner makes regarding the drop in standard of goalkeepers in latter years but there has to be better keepers out there than almunia. I am sick of fans saying we couldnt get this player or that player cos being truthful it is only the very elite group of players that should be out of our reach. What is more accurate, and again g88ner makes the same point I think, is that we wont go after the next level of players and wont pay the required prices as we continue to try and do things on the cheap I agree that we havent got the money to spend big on every position but there are positions in every team that you simply must have quality and these of course the spine of your team (keeper, centre halves, centre midfield and striker) and in many ways the keeper is the most important of the lot. There is no point in having a decent keeper like almunia who cannot hack it in the big games cos if you are playing for a club like ours you would expect to be playing in many big games every season and trophies are usually won and lost in these very games
g88ner - Given constantly came out saying he didn't want to leave Newcastle it was nothing to do with the club. You can read that as loyalty or that he was 'worried' about moving to a bigger club. Fact is, I lost count of the number of times I watched a game where Given either won it for them or kept them in the game. I still can't recall ever saying that about Almunia and don't think I ever will.
Bergkamp-Genius wrote:.... The Diaby goal, i can't possibly blame Almunia for that goal, if your suggesting Almunia could see the ball coming for long enough to know he could come out and take it unchallenged then he could also see the ball was going to his own player in space for an easy clearance, so again i say there was no need for him to risk coming for it.
I understand that people think he doesn't command his box enough but he is not alone in that there are few keepers that do these days at least not safely. So again it's not that i think he is the ultimate keeper, i just don't see anyone out there that we would buy that would be much if any better.
That one way of looking at it BG. On the otherhand, one would have a strong arguement stating that technically it is easier for someone coming forward onto the ball (ala how Almunia should have done it), then someone controlling it going backwards as Diaby was. After all, Almunia would only have had to step forward two or three yards from his starting position and he would have comfortably got hold of the ball with no opposition challenge in sight.
Had Almunia done that, which I believe most keepers - even some shit ones - would have, then Diaby wouldn't have needed or had the opportunity to miss-head the ball with his coconut crown, and we wouldn't be here discussing it at all.
The point I'm making about Given is that, not only has a been team not come in for him but none seemed to be really interested either.
Don't get me wrong, I think Shay Givem is the Best 'keeper ever to come from the Republic of Ireland and he can be awesome in Qualifiers but come a World Cup or even the Champions League with Newcastle - he barely stood out and that is were the best can earn their corn.
I agree that we havent got the money to spend big on every position but there are positions in every team that you simply must have quality and these of course the spine of your team (keeper, centre halves, centre midfield and striker) and in many ways the keeper is the most important of the lot. There is no point in having a decent keeper like almunia who cannot hack it in the big games cos if you are playing for a club like ours you would expect to be playing in many big games every season and trophies are usually won and lost in these very games
