Euro 2013 u21s

[SteveO 35]

Some really good points being made on here. Having given up years of Sunday mornings both to watch and assist with my eldest son's football I can only confirm a number of the depressing points being raised here about grassroots football. There is a team in our town that dominate junior football in the age groups between 11 and 14, winning the title and cups every year. The guy who heads up the setup is a personal trainer and the emphasis is all about athleticism and power and you openly see them picking up all of the biggest boys and encouraging them to bully the opposition. To be honest at this age group it works because there is a massive difference in kids personal development but in the 11 years I've lived here I've not heard of a single boy who has then gone on and done anything of note, because once they reach adulthood and the physical aspects level out these kids are no more than average. The other day my lad told me how this team had convinced the captain from their school rugby team to join them and how he was 'a beast' etc. This must go on all over the country

Up until a year or two ago kids were playing 7 a side football up to u10 age group and then immediately jumping straight to 11 a side football on a full size pitch the following year. This was the point I was most in despair because all of the stuff they'd been learning got replaced with the most valuable players being a big lad who kick the ball the furthest and quick lad up front who could simple outpace everyone and then lift a shot to within a couple of feet of the crossbar. Anyone witnessed an u11 keeper seeing shot after shot sail over his head into an oversized goal? Its depressing and produces reward for poor technique. It would be like watching a PL game with goals of 10 ft high, where you could just whack the ball hard and high.

Kids major development years are being pissed away. Now they have introduced compulsory 9 a side format on smaller pitches for 2 more more years but so many kids have lost their development years to this style of play now and it will take time to evolve

[LDB]

I agree with everything said about grassroots football.

But you can also take it higher:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mM747L9Wf8M

The biggest club in English football using tactics like that against a superior team, the ref doing fuck all and even encouraging it through his inaction and not a peep of criticism from the media. Indeed, we are told that this is what English football is all about and we don't want the game to be like it is on the continent. Well excuse me but don't peddle this shit and then expect English players to be successful internationally where the standards of refereeing are completely different, certainly don't bleat about the state of grassroots football if you support this pre-historic approach at senior level.

It's time we forced refereeing standards to be in line with the rest of the world so that we'd have no choice but to develop technical players.

[northbank123]

My brother lives in northern Holland and a few years ago I went to stay with him for a week. I took part in a training session with his club and also watched them play a competitive match. The standard was quite decent - far from pub football although a few levels from semi-pro sort of standard. What I saw and experienced though was a real eye-opener.

In return for running 3 senior teams, a full quota of junior teams and female sides, the Dutch FA and local council happily finance most of the infrastructure developments. The difference between that club and my experiences (at a considerably better level over here was huge:

FACILITIES

HOLLAND: Floodlit artificial pitch (far better than any '3G' pitches over here) and phenomenal two-storey structure with huge dressing room areas on the bottom and a state-of-the-art clubhouse on the top. In addition, they have an indoor training facility with an artificial pitch which is used by AZ Alkmaar when their pitches are frozen and covered in snow.

UK: Uneven, small pitch that may have some long grass on early season but will be a bare mudbath by October/November. Either way not conducive to passing. Training likely to be on awful astro-turf.

STAFF

HOLLAND: First-team coaching staff of about 5 (including specialist keeping coach) in addition to a few coaches for each junior team and a comprehensive backroom staff like physios. Many of these also work with AZ Alkmaar.

UK: 2 or 3 people who are generally underqualified or completely unqualified but will try and cover team selection, player management, tactics, fitness coaching, general coaching and physiotherapy between them.

TRAINING METHODS

HOLLAND: Tailored fitness work based on fixture list, etc. Followed by extensive passing/defensive/attacking drills and then closely-monitored small-sided games focusing on practical application.

UK: Few laps of the pitch to warm up, followed by getting the wingers to put crosses in for all players (including defenders) to smash the ball past the keeper from 5 yards out without opposition and finally an 'all-in' game which just turns into a showboating session.

Even from watching just one training session the difference was unbelievable. No wonder we're light years behind on the national stage.

[StuartL]

I agree with everything said about grassroots football.

But you can also take it higher:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mM747L9Wf8M

The biggest club in English football using tactics like that against a superior team, the ref doing fuck all and even encouraging it through his inaction and not a peep of criticism from the media. Indeed, we are told that this is what English football is all about and we don't want the game to be like it is on the continent. Well excuse me but don't peddle this shit and then expect English players to be successful internationally where the standards of refereeing are completely different, certainly don't bleat about the state of grassroots football if you support this pre-historic approach at senior level.

It's time we forced refereeing standards to be in line with the rest of the world so that we'd have no choice but to develop technical players.

Agree that is all most English players have got, the physicality to outmuscle those fancydan foreigners who can control, pass, dribble, etc - they don't like it up em do they.

If you can't beat them - kick the fuck out of them.

[1989]

This sums Pearce up:

[Herd]

Having spent time in Holland and in Denmark ,their coaching models,and investment in infrastructure for youth put us to shame as a previous poster so rightly pointed out !
In any Village u will see coaching and playing from young to old centered round the local club and funded municipally and by the locals .
The FA basically gave the youth of Britain over to the premiership clubs which was a massive mistake and will take years to rectify ,the county football system was demolished to do this and facilities outside the rich are crap.
Stuart Pearce is a grade a moron ,was a dirty player with no vision ,now he's in charge of youth what a joke.
My own experience with my sons footballing days in Essex are a mirror image of previous posts too.
My Nephew was forever told he was too small and found it hard to accept as he was the most talented player in his school,district teams but when he hit 16 couldn't get a club ,gave up trying to be a pro played non league semi pro to get himself through uni and played semi pro until recently when his kid was born.

[northbank123]

As Herd says the emphasis on size here is ridiculous - particularly when they extend it to players like full-backs. Since when was it a pre-requisite for a full-back to be 6'+, even in the lower leagues?

Adding to that, the way academy players are treated is beyond ruthless. I know quite a few mates who played academy from the age of 7 or 8 until 16 and had real hope of being kept on despite 70% of players getting dropped at 15/16. Then one day they just get the call to tell them they're being culled and that's it. Of all those mates only 1 now is playing football because they're just thrown out the door after nearly a decade at a club with no knowledge or experience of regional/local football and no contacts, and they understandably become so disillusioned.

[safcftm]

First things first, just to get it out of the way, Stuart Pearce is a shit manager who should be nowhere near the England Under 21s job and wouldn't be if he wasn't such a nodding dog yes man to the FA. The FA must know that they need changes made but this will never happen whilst people such as Pearce are given jobs because, basically, they won't rock the boat. Also for a supposed hard man he fucking disgusted me when our players were getting racially abused by the Serbs (again) and he did fuck all. I know as a manager you need to try and keep your cool but we had young lads out there being abused because of the colour of their skin and being pushed about by the Serbian coaches, "Psycho" should have kicked the fuck out of the Serbians and taken the punishment on the chin. Racially abusing Danny Rose, I'm soft as shite and I'd kick fuck out of anyone abusing Danny Rose, some fucking psycho he is.

Anyway, Stuart Pearce being shit aside, I don't think anyone could do much with the under 21s, its too late by the time they're that age. As always we've got lads who get bigged up because they show a tiny bit of skill or because they're fast as fuck or strong as fuck but you watch a team of them and they look like they've never passed a ball in their lives, there is no technical ability there and I include the midfielders and attackers in that, not just the defenders. Other countries have players who at least have the basics (control, ability to pass and move etc), we have no style, no technical ability and as a result no chance of achieving anything.

I remember reading recently that there's about 3,000 fully qualified coaches in England and about 40,000 in Germany, no wonder they get better coaching, there's more coaches competing for jobs and that pushes people to perform better. Plus in England there is far, far too much focus on kids winning matches. My lass has a 10 year old boy and I watch his games most Saturdays, they have a big lad up front but last week they kept passing the ball about, tried to find space and lost 2-1. The manager went mad saying about "playing to their strengths", which pretty much meant he wanted them to hoof the ball to the big lad because he'd probably have beasted past the defender and scored. I said to her kid that he was doing the right thing, who gives a fuck if you win or not at 10 years old? The entire focus should be on the kids learning how to play football, getting comfortable on the ball, not just in trying to win 1-0 and learning nothing. Apparently soon they'll be on full sized pitches, the kids haven't developed their technical skills at all yet, they need longer on small pitches where their first touch needs to be good and where their passing needs to be accurate, not on a large pitch where they can miscontrol a ball and still get to it before launching it vaguely near the quick lad on the wing.

Until the youth system is looked at properly we will always struggle, Mourinho could manage the under 21s and they'd be limited, the senior side is full of players who look limited technically and its all down to the way youth football is operated in England. Coaching aside we seem to have a real problem with attitude as well, too many kids get a first big contract and just get interested in "bling" and generally trying to act like rappers, I get the feeling that many other countries don't have this, their young players don't get massive pay packets as quickly, they're more grounded lads who want to succeed at their profession and they aren't bigged up by a media who are just waiting to knock them back down again. There are exceptions of course, but attitude and coaching are, imo, two of the biggest reasons why we lag embarrassingly behind other major footballing nations when it comes to the national sides and I really see no evidence of either problem being addressed.

[northbank123]

Two good points raised there safc.

1. Coaches - As I said, out in Holland (and probably a fair few other countries) a decent local side will probably have 3 or 4 qualified coaches in addition to a qualified coach for each junior team right down to the 6 and 7 year olds. In South Wales alone I know of a number of clubs with playing budgets of £10,000 or considerably more a season who don't have any staff with coaching qualifications, or perhaps one with a token C licence who takes little responsibility for actually coaching. Madness.

I remember listening to Jason Roberts on the radio expressing his incredulity that Andy Cole wasn't interviewed for a Conference job (Tamworth I think), completely ignoring the fact that there were hundreds of other applicants who actually had impressive coaching credentials. Players like Roy Keane and Alan Shearer were offered managerial jobs at fairly big clubs despite being woefully underqualified, just because of their talent as players. Contrast this with Dennis Bergkamp, who since retiring undertook a fast-track coaching diploma specifically for ex-Dutch internationals, worked as a trainee coach at Ajax, then assistant to Neeskens for Dutch B team and has since worked his way up at Ajax through U12s, U19s and now as assistant manager.

2. Full-sized pitches - What is the point in 11 year olds playing on full-size pitches? Really? Keepers can't get near the crossbar and it's just complete kick-and-rush football. The knock-on effect is that the kid who physically develops ahead of everyone else and can kick the ball furthest and hardest scores 4 goals a game, gets picked up by the local academy and is released at 15 when everyone else has caught up with him - with players with actual footballing potential being overlooked until it's too late.

[DB10GOONER]

Agreed 100% on the shit grass roots coaching of kids in Oireland and Engerland. Too much emphasis on win at all costs from a young age rather than learn to play properly first. My old team tried to address this by setting up an under 10's academy where kids learnt ball skills and passing etc but played no competitive games, just friendly 5 asides and 7 asides. I was delighted. Enrolled my boy and he was doing great. This was so different to how I learnt the game back in the 70's and 80's.

But the arsehole majority of other dad's were whining about their kids not getting "proper football coaching" so eventually, so many kids were taken out of it by their dads, that the club dropped the idea and whamblam we are back to the sight of 8 year olds just kicking the ball forward on a huge pitch in win at all costs games. Kick run kick run - fucking appalling.



Until clubs at all levels address the skills issue in these isles we will always be behind the Dutch, Germans, South Americans and Spanish.

[safcftm]

Two good points raised there safc.

1. Coaches - As I said, out in Holland (and probably a fair few other countries) a decent local side will probably have 3 or 4 qualified coaches in addition to a qualified coach for each junior team right down to the 6 and 7 year olds. In South Wales alone I know of a number of clubs with playing budgets of £10,000 or considerably more a season who don't have any staff with coaching qualifications, or perhaps one with a token C licence who takes little responsibility for actually coaching. Madness.

I remember listening to Jason Roberts on the radio expressing his incredulity that Andy Cole wasn't interviewed for a Conference job (Tamworth I think), completely ignoring the fact that there were hundreds of other applicants who actually had impressive coaching credentials. Players like Roy Keane and Alan Shearer were offered managerial jobs at fairly big clubs despite being woefully underqualified, just because of their talent as players. Contrast this with Dennis Bergkamp, who since retiring undertook a fast-track coaching diploma specifically for ex-Dutch internationals, worked as a trainee coach at Ajax, then assistant to Neeskens for Dutch B team and has since worked his way up at Ajax through U12s, U19s and now as assistant manager.

2. Full-sized pitches - What is the point in 11 year olds playing on full-size pitches? Really? Keepers can't get near the crossbar and it's just complete kick-and-rush football. The knock-on effect is that the kid who physically develops ahead of everyone else and can kick the ball furthest and hardest scores 4 goals a game, gets picked up by the local academy and is released at 15 when everyone else has caught up with him - with players with actual footballing potential being overlooked until it's too late.

The idea of ex-players just waltzing into management jobs is something that really irritates me. Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those lads that plays Football Manager and suddenly thinks "I could do that", I don't have enough knowledge of systems etc to do it but I'll tell you what, I'm still probably more qualified for the job than half of the ex-players who use it as a chance to stay on the gravy train since at least I work as a manager in my job and even though its not football related it means I need to have managerial skills that many ex footballers lack.

The fact is that you need a certain skill set to be, say, a left sided midfielder- a bit of pace often helps, some skill on the ball, an ability to cross, knowledge of your position so you know when to track back etc. Being a manager needs a completely different skill set - you need to be able to motivate players (young, old, enthusiastic, lazy), you need to be able to assess opposition teams and decide what personnel and system is most likely to succeed, you need to be able to think on your feet and make a change if it isn't working, you need to have a bit of ability to spot a good player (you'd have scouts but would need to make your own mind up as well), you need to be able to manage budgets etc, very few of the skills that made you a good left sided midfielder would lead to you being a good manager. Maybe you'd have the respect of fellow players (as you've been a player yourself) but that's about it.

Its no wonder that so many managers seem so mediocre, there's very few genuinely good ones about but that's not too surprising when so many clubs seem to limit the pool of applicants they'd consider to people who played professionally (often to a high level). There are no doubt plenty of people knowledgeable about football and with managerial ability who could do a better job but don't get a look in due to the old boys network nature of the sport. It doesn't surprise me that some of the few managers who didn't have sparkling playing careers piss all over the Roy Keane, Paul Ince, Alan Shearer's of the world (managers like Wenger and Mourinho for starters)

[topgoon]

To return to the utter useless tw*t that is the manager of the u21s

England lost 1-0 to the mighty footballing nation of Israel and so go out with nil point, no goals from open play and one measly penalty.

He actually said before the game that he would use today's game as prep for the next qualifying tournament for the u21s......dear oh f**king dear, surely even the FA wouldn't be dumb enough to give this tosser a new contract.

Personally I think seeing as Neville G talks some sense on Sky as a pundit, he's obviously got his badges, why doesn't he stop being Roy's bagman and put his money where his mouth is and take the u21s job

[northbank123]

Why the clamour for an ex-footballer as U21 boss? Gary Neville had a distinguished playing career and has been surprisingly impressive as a pundit but is this really reason to give him the job ahead of the hundreds of applicants who hold UEFA Pro Licences in England? Especially given the developmental nature of U21 football I would want a manager/coach with exceptional technical credentials. Giving the job to a bloke whose only coaching experience was a bit of moonlighting with England last summer is straight out of the frying pan into the fire imo.

Take Wales as an example - after years of dross under dinosaur John Toshack, Gary Speed was credited with single-handedly turning things round. BOLLOCKS. It was primarily down to the coaches Raymond Verheijen and Osian Roberts who introduced novel methods and completely changed the way the players trained, thought and approached games. FAW clearly thought differently as they bombed out Verheijen in favour of Coleman - and consequently the team took several steps backwards and looked clueless for months. Was Speed a phenomenally better manager than Chris Coleman? No.

[safcftm]

Why the clamour for an ex-footballer as U21 boss? Gary Neville had a distinguished playing career and has been surprisingly impressive as a pundit but is this really reason to give him the job ahead of the hundreds of applicants who hold UEFA Pro Licences in England? Especially given the developmental nature of U21 football I would want a manager/coach with exceptional technical credentials. Giving the job to a bloke whose only coaching experience was a bit of moonlighting with England last summer is straight out of the frying pan into the fire imo.

Take Wales as an example - after years of dross under dinosaur John Toshack, Gary Speed was credited with single-handedly turning things round. BOLLOCKS. It was primarily down to the coaches Raymond Verheijen and Osian Roberts who introduced novel methods and completely changed the way the players trained, thought and approached games. FAW clearly thought differently as they bombed out Verheijen in favour of Coleman - and consequently the team took several steps backwards and looked clueless for months. Was Speed a phenomenally better manager than Chris Coleman? No.

Absolutely spot on. Mind, even a good coach would struggle with the 21s due to the small amount of time they actually get to spend with them. I saw Stuart Pearce's comments on the BBC site today like (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22865904), disgraceful how he's trying to deflect all blame away from himself. Yes, the players need to look at themselves but he picked them, he "motivated" them and no manager can ever, especially over the course of a 3 game run and not a one off, 100% blame the players and not take any responsibility at all. Then he goes on to say "maybe there wasn't enough talent here", I'm sorry like but I wonder how many £15m players the Norwegians and Israelis had access to, plus Wickham at £8m (albeit both of the above were over priced), Henderson is a relatively regular player for Liverpool, Shelvey plays quite often as well, Rose was our second best player last season, Ince is getting rave reviews (albeit not in the top flight). The players let themselves down but to suggest that there isn't enough talent there for him to have gathered more than 0 points from 3 games is a joke, the English players aren't great, technically they're not strong enough, but Pearce still badly underperformed but he isn't man enough to put his hands up, he needs to be replaced

[worthing_gooner]

Agree on all the comments made on grass roots football. I used to coach an Under 12 team up in South London, tried to allow the players freedom to go and express themselves on the pitch without having to worry too much about the result. Trouble is, some of the parents would turn up screaming at their kid.

One time, we had quite a skillfull tricky lad, had a lot of potential, but I remember one match he tried a turn back through the opposition player's legs and lost the ball, the oppo went and scored. One of the parents went absolutely mental at him for "costing us the points"... seriously? Who gives a fuck about points at that age? The kid tried something. Imagine if a young Messi was playing over here, every time he tried something they'd shout at him to play it safe and not try anything stupid. Any flair or technical ability a player has is coached out of him before he's even hit his teenage years, through fear of losing a match and pissing someone off as much as anything.

Trouble is, as usual the FA come out and blame Premier League clubs and foreign imports and all that. They need to look a lot closer to home.

Also can't tell you how strongly I agree with the smaller pitch thing. No young player should ever be playing on a full size pitch. Pitches should gradually increase in size as the player goes up the age groups, but by starting with smaller more compact pitches, they learn the crucial skills of touch, vision, technique and awareness, which (not coincidentally) happen to be the very skills English players lack.

Until youth football coaching and emphasis changes here, we will have the same problems over and over with our national sides.