Excellent post 26th. Although I don't necessarily agree with everything you say in that post, it is worth remembering that if we can make similar progress next season as we have done this, then we will be in a very strong position overall.
Still, making similar progress is easier said than done...
THE MONEY THREAD
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Magic Merse
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Well i'm not arsene wenger and i dont know what style of play he is trying to create. I'm not saying that he can buy the messi's kaka's etc and chooses not to. Its obvious that we cant afford them players. But what i'm saying is wenger will look at a player first, decided if he fits in to way wenger would want them to play and then looks at if its possiable to buy them.donaldo wrote:So Magic Merse you wouldn"t sign Messi because he didn"t fit in the Arsenal system thats bollocks.Are you telling me Eboue does?
NOT, look at who's in the red tops that week and then decide if it will make the supporters happy if he buys them.
My guess is that it's a mixture of things:donaldo wrote:26th may 1989
The point rebel was making was how come mid table teams like the Spuds,Newcastle,Man City and even Pompey are spending more than us.
As TS said the £350m debt was over 25 years, there is no urgency to pay it back.
Spurs and Newcastle are desperate to recover the ground they've lost over the last 10/15 years, and feel they have little to lose by blowing money year after year.
Man City are owned by England's equivalent of Jesus Gil at Atletico Madrid or Romanov who bought Hearts a few years ago, brought them some success but ultimately fucked the club with his interference. Shinawatra will get bored (or imprisoned or assassinated), and Man City will find themselves back where they were.
Pompey make a lot of very astute signings (though not that striker from Preston), and probably don't spend as much as the likes of Spurs. But it's noticeable that they sign a lot of older players. They look to me like the latter-day equivalent of Bolton, and I'd be surprised if Pompey were able to keep pace when Harry R (who I think is an excellent manager) leaves.
I agree it's frustrating to think players like Eto'o or Dos Santos could end up at these mid-tier clubs (though at the moment it's just tabloid bollocks). But none of these approaches is likely to be sustainable. Arsenal are being financially careful because their intention is not to break into the top four or just compete for the league; the objective here is to transform the finances of the club permanently and use that as a springboard to join the European elite.
Good luck to him, I hope we can find a replacement or else we are in deep deep trouble? Honestly what do you expect from me? Hip Hip hooray? Seriously? Why am I not supposed to be happy if we lose Cesc because I fear overspending will bankrupt, or nearly do so, clubs and don't want it to happen to us?Dont be suprised if Cesc doesnt look at the situation and say fuck this i cant wait for success i am off to Spain.And what will you say then Magic Hat
Excellent posts 26may and thanks for answering TS question for me
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QuartzGooner
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- Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:49 pm
- Location: London
Arsenal's gate receipts per home match are in excess of £3million. That''s a minimum of £75million a season not including money from concessions, tv deals and merchandising. The stadium pays for itself.
Arsenal have debts of about £300million over 25 years. That's £12 million a year.
Throw into the fact that the Highbury flats will net Arsenal in excess of £100 million in a couple of years I think it's safe to say that Arsenal have money to spend. So this frugal approach is not warranted. The club continues to make profits, which means that more is coming in than coming out. I don't put money into the club to make the board richer. I put money in so that a few men can sit around earning £20-40k a week complaining about not getting a game.
I don't mind Arsene not bringing in big name players with massive transfer fees, but what I can't stand is the size of our squad. Our midfield was in dire need of a rest half way through the season. How many goals/assists did Fabregas get in 2008? After Eduardo's injury we were reduced to something like 13 outfield players, which Wenger complained about. He should have strengthened, even if it meant only bringing in a few guys on loan.
The money is there, the money isn't the issue. Wenger needs to realise that it's better to have players and not need them than need them and not have them. Diarra should have been kept on the books until the Flamini situation was sorted for one thing. Diarra's £2m signing and £5m sale meant a profit of £3million. Offering Flamini an extra £10k a week would have cost us an additional £2-3million. Not giving him that has meant we now have to bring in a replacement. If we don't bring in an effective central midfielder for £5-6 million then from a financial standpoint, the decisions have been wrong and costly.
I want Wenger to remain in charge, I just want him to be a bit less bull headed and realise that he needs to make some changes. Our coaches don't seem to know much about defending.
Arsenal have debts of about £300million over 25 years. That's £12 million a year.
Throw into the fact that the Highbury flats will net Arsenal in excess of £100 million in a couple of years I think it's safe to say that Arsenal have money to spend. So this frugal approach is not warranted. The club continues to make profits, which means that more is coming in than coming out. I don't put money into the club to make the board richer. I put money in so that a few men can sit around earning £20-40k a week complaining about not getting a game.
I don't mind Arsene not bringing in big name players with massive transfer fees, but what I can't stand is the size of our squad. Our midfield was in dire need of a rest half way through the season. How many goals/assists did Fabregas get in 2008? After Eduardo's injury we were reduced to something like 13 outfield players, which Wenger complained about. He should have strengthened, even if it meant only bringing in a few guys on loan.
The money is there, the money isn't the issue. Wenger needs to realise that it's better to have players and not need them than need them and not have them. Diarra should have been kept on the books until the Flamini situation was sorted for one thing. Diarra's £2m signing and £5m sale meant a profit of £3million. Offering Flamini an extra £10k a week would have cost us an additional £2-3million. Not giving him that has meant we now have to bring in a replacement. If we don't bring in an effective central midfielder for £5-6 million then from a financial standpoint, the decisions have been wrong and costly.
I want Wenger to remain in charge, I just want him to be a bit less bull headed and realise that he needs to make some changes. Our coaches don't seem to know much about defending.
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DB10GOONER
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Magic Merse
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- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:08 pm
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Well mr ras dam, thats quite a first post. And i'm sure half the people on here will agree with you.
However i'm in the other half that think your being a touch melodramatic.
Firstly, yes our gate receipts and matchday income has increased. But so has our matchday expenditure. And then we have that little problem of a stadium to pay off. When you take out a loan for a car you work out how much you can afford to pay back. You dont then go out and blow a load of money on matching 'rims' and footmatts. Money is going to be tight. End of. It will get better, but for the moment, that's just the way it is. If you want big signings and to be paying the wages of benched superstars i could suggest a team from west london who would be more than willing to take your money.
I do agree with you point about not stregthing the team in january, although wenger probably didn't expect doujou and eduardo injuered.
Offering Flamini an extra 10k a week wouldnt of made a difference. The amount we woulld have to offer to match ac's contract after tax would of been massive. And that would of lead to players like adebayour, clichy, kolo etc asking for the same kinda money. Which would lead to less money for signings.
The season hasn't finnished yet, so give wenger a chance to act. The euro's will mean most deals wont take place until they are finnished so we will have a wait ahead of us. But lets take a step back and realise that we have improved a great deal this season and lets see who he brings in, in the summer.
And yes. It seams as if our defensive coaches have take a long holiday to cuba or somewhere.
However i'm in the other half that think your being a touch melodramatic.
Firstly, yes our gate receipts and matchday income has increased. But so has our matchday expenditure. And then we have that little problem of a stadium to pay off. When you take out a loan for a car you work out how much you can afford to pay back. You dont then go out and blow a load of money on matching 'rims' and footmatts. Money is going to be tight. End of. It will get better, but for the moment, that's just the way it is. If you want big signings and to be paying the wages of benched superstars i could suggest a team from west london who would be more than willing to take your money.
I do agree with you point about not stregthing the team in january, although wenger probably didn't expect doujou and eduardo injuered.
Offering Flamini an extra 10k a week wouldnt of made a difference. The amount we woulld have to offer to match ac's contract after tax would of been massive. And that would of lead to players like adebayour, clichy, kolo etc asking for the same kinda money. Which would lead to less money for signings.
The season hasn't finnished yet, so give wenger a chance to act. The euro's will mean most deals wont take place until they are finnished so we will have a wait ahead of us. But lets take a step back and realise that we have improved a great deal this season and lets see who he brings in, in the summer.
And yes. It seams as if our defensive coaches have take a long holiday to cuba or somewhere.
Our board announced record profits last year and claim that we are doing even better this year. Which means that the Stadium isn't a problem. It also means that Wenger is sitting on a fortune because he likes being heralded as a finder of unknown gems.
I don't want super star signings. I just want signings. Buying 5 players that don't cost anymore than £6 million each, preferably free, would be ideal. Gomes and Affelay from PSV won't cost more than £10million combined. Makoun won't cost much as Lille are resigned to losing him this summer. We need a centre back like Dunne of Man City to organize the troops, but more importantly we need someone on the coaching staff that can teach them how to defend long balls, corners and free kicks.
I'm not being melodramatic, for the last 5 years we've run out of steam towards the end of the campaign. We were fighting on three fronts when we went undefeated but started drawing in the league and got knocked out of the Champions League and FA Cup. The following season we started to falter and lost out in the league and Champions League, only managing to get the FA Cup. The seasons since have left us short of breath and short of silverware. The team needs to be strengthened and Arsene needs to rotate more. Fabregas, Hleb, Adebayor, Clichy, Gallas, Toure and Flamini played pretty much every match they were physically fit enough to play in, despite not being of good match fitness.
Edit
Thanks for the welcome. It was rude of me not to acknowledge it.
*Waves hand*
I look forward to sharing the highs and lows of being an Arsenal supporter with you all.
Magic Merse, I clearly stated that I didn't want big name signings with massive transfer fees but I did want signings. Please take note before lumping me in with all the glory hunters and such.
I don't want super star signings. I just want signings. Buying 5 players that don't cost anymore than £6 million each, preferably free, would be ideal. Gomes and Affelay from PSV won't cost more than £10million combined. Makoun won't cost much as Lille are resigned to losing him this summer. We need a centre back like Dunne of Man City to organize the troops, but more importantly we need someone on the coaching staff that can teach them how to defend long balls, corners and free kicks.
I'm not being melodramatic, for the last 5 years we've run out of steam towards the end of the campaign. We were fighting on three fronts when we went undefeated but started drawing in the league and got knocked out of the Champions League and FA Cup. The following season we started to falter and lost out in the league and Champions League, only managing to get the FA Cup. The seasons since have left us short of breath and short of silverware. The team needs to be strengthened and Arsene needs to rotate more. Fabregas, Hleb, Adebayor, Clichy, Gallas, Toure and Flamini played pretty much every match they were physically fit enough to play in, despite not being of good match fitness.
Edit
Thanks for the welcome. It was rude of me not to acknowledge it.
*Waves hand*
I look forward to sharing the highs and lows of being an Arsenal supporter with you all.
Magic Merse, I clearly stated that I didn't want big name signings with massive transfer fees but I did want signings. Please take note before lumping me in with all the glory hunters and such.
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I Hate Hleb
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good points ras dam,, agree about the spending and on top of the internationals and bruce springsteen concert i also agree the stadium covers itself,, so its up to wenger now,, we stand still and be passed out or we move on and get some quality into our squad,, and welcome to the forum
its not always this sane
its not always this sane
Good posts Ras Dam, and welcome. We don't agree on whether Wenger's sitting on a pile of cash but we probably agree on a fair amount. For as good an analysis of the accounts situation as is available, I suggest you read this:
http://www.arsenalnewsreview.co.uk/inde ... eturnid=42
and this:
http://www.onlinegooner.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=6425
and this:
http://www.onlinegooner.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=6536
Since you refer to getting 5 players in for £6m each, we're in the same ballpark in terms of what can and should be spent. From the ANR analysis of the accounts, Wenger is understood to have £25m to spend (before any sales are made), which is roughly the same as your £30m.
I also agree the sale of the property developments within the next couple of years will change things very much for the better, and will enable Wenger to spend more than we can at the moment, but I don't see how the possibility or even probability of selling those developments justifies being reckless now with our future as a club. The history of football is littered with examples of stupid, reckless behaviour of directors, who make financial decisions based on hope rather than judgment, and I don't want Arsenal to join that list. For that reason, I'm willing to wait, especially given that we've got a manager who can keep us at a high level of performance through the frugal period.
I don't see how you can say "Which means that the Stadium isn't a problem. It also means that Wenger is sitting on a fortune because he likes being heralded as a finder of unknown gems". All you know is that the profits figures are high, not what that leaves for Wenger once loan commitments are deducted. The ANR analysis of the latest accounts suggests you're wrong. And, based on the Forbes Richlist/Deloitte analysis, while Arsenal have high operating income, other than Schalke (about which I don't know the story), we are the only major club with debt over 30% of its value which is not either loaded up with debt by a buyer (Man U, Liverpool, Man City and Newcastle), something that would threaten the long-term prospects of the club, or is financially fucked (Valencia and Dortmund). See the Forbes report at: http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/34/biz ... _Rank.html
Dealing with the debt over the next couple of years, as was planned and has been done so far, is extremely important if we are to take a permanent position at the top table. We have to live within our restricted means for a while yet. That doesn't mean to say the board should deceive fans (as they have), or that significant signings don't need to be made this summer. It just means that, for a little while longer, we have less money to splash around than our rivals.
http://www.arsenalnewsreview.co.uk/inde ... eturnid=42
and this:
http://www.onlinegooner.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=6425
and this:
http://www.onlinegooner.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=6536
Since you refer to getting 5 players in for £6m each, we're in the same ballpark in terms of what can and should be spent. From the ANR analysis of the accounts, Wenger is understood to have £25m to spend (before any sales are made), which is roughly the same as your £30m.
I also agree the sale of the property developments within the next couple of years will change things very much for the better, and will enable Wenger to spend more than we can at the moment, but I don't see how the possibility or even probability of selling those developments justifies being reckless now with our future as a club. The history of football is littered with examples of stupid, reckless behaviour of directors, who make financial decisions based on hope rather than judgment, and I don't want Arsenal to join that list. For that reason, I'm willing to wait, especially given that we've got a manager who can keep us at a high level of performance through the frugal period.
I don't see how you can say "Which means that the Stadium isn't a problem. It also means that Wenger is sitting on a fortune because he likes being heralded as a finder of unknown gems". All you know is that the profits figures are high, not what that leaves for Wenger once loan commitments are deducted. The ANR analysis of the latest accounts suggests you're wrong. And, based on the Forbes Richlist/Deloitte analysis, while Arsenal have high operating income, other than Schalke (about which I don't know the story), we are the only major club with debt over 30% of its value which is not either loaded up with debt by a buyer (Man U, Liverpool, Man City and Newcastle), something that would threaten the long-term prospects of the club, or is financially fucked (Valencia and Dortmund). See the Forbes report at: http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/34/biz ... _Rank.html
Dealing with the debt over the next couple of years, as was planned and has been done so far, is extremely important if we are to take a permanent position at the top table. We have to live within our restricted means for a while yet. That doesn't mean to say the board should deceive fans (as they have), or that significant signings don't need to be made this summer. It just means that, for a little while longer, we have less money to splash around than our rivals.
