Other Matches Thread

[OneBardGooner]

For the record I think only 4 players from the current victims team would get into our starting 11 - alisson, mcallister, salah and jota would be my choices. I think that neither midfield is great but theirs is bang average, and whilst it was a toss up between calafiori and robertson for left full, none of the other victims defenders would get in ahead of ours. The big difference (as I said yesterday) is upfront - jota who isnt even a definite starter for them would make our 11 which gives you an idea of the difference is quality in attacking areas

Agreed. The only two I’d take into a PL team are Alisson and Salah, who’s world class. The other two you mention would improve our side, due to the areas of chronic weakness, but neither would be my ideal replacements. That, of course, is the point.

This maybe be against the general opinion, but I would also take a punt on Jones and Henderson their 2 emerging youngsters, not as starters but as Back-Ups, which of course is what they are for the scousers.

[General]

You're also wrong about Klopp strengthening their ageing midfield last summer. He bought Gakpo in January 2023 and Gravenberch in summer 2023.

Sorry Klopp also bought Szoboszlai, Mac Allister and made Curtis Jones a regular starter. Henderson, Fabinho and the injury prone Thiago Alcantara were effectively replaced in the summer of 2023. It is impossible to have an honest debate when your perception of Liverpool is evidently not very well researched.

[General]

Klopp joined the scousers 4 years before Arteta joined Arsenal, so when Arteta has been at the club for 7 years will you say that Liverpool have been building for 11 years? After Arteta's 10th season will you say that Klopp arrived 14 years ago? Is there a point at which you think Arteta can be fairly judged without reference to the success or failings of other teams? Oh and just a word about your disingenuous stats....somewhere you said that in his first 5 years Klopp only won one league title, but you conveniently overlooked the CL he won. Also, check out his points totals when just missing out to City in the league.

This comes down to how many of the current playing squad is carried over by the succeeding manager. It is quite funny how some of you are keen to highlight the fact that Arteta won the FA Cup with Emery's team yet want to dismiss the notion Slot of benefitting from the squad Klopp built. The difference is the core of Liverpool's squad has been in place for a significant period, still producing the highest quality, and consequently didn't need to be overhauled by Slot. Yes I know they won the CL in his 4th season but I was specifically referring to the league which is where a team's performance should be judged. I'm also fully aware of their points total when missing out on the league to City. Everything is relative.

As for us winning the league 3 times if there was no pimped City, how'd you arrive at that? We've been second twice under Arteta and the highest placing other than that is 5th.

Is that you misquoting? I said our record last season would've won us the league in 3 seasons out of 5 without the state sponsored club. It's a juxtaposition.

Arsenal last season - 89points GD+62

2023/24 Champions - City - 91points GD +62.
2022/23 Champions - City - 89pointys GD+61
2020/21 Champions - City - 86Points GD +51

[General]

My point remains that if the cone boys fan boy believes that we can only get 4 players into an average victims team, and that only two of those 4 players were cone boy signings, then how can he claim that £800m has been well spent and how can he argue that he should be allowed spend more ? There is no valid argument he can make and he knows it

Having 4 Arsenal players in the Liverpool team doesn't mean our team is substandard. It was simply meant to illustrate that man for man Liverpool have a superior team. You could make an argument to include more of our players in the combined team because football is a team sport and in certain areas we are better as a unit, but it's no longer an honest argument when you dismiss them as an average team.
Jesus., Zinchenko, Partey, White etc were acquired to help stablise the club and they played their part in our resurgence. We've now outgrown them and need better quality. Not every player Arteta bought has been a success and that's just football. It took Klopp 5years to win the PL. As for Emery, the team he left behind couldn't save him from the sack. What does that tell you.

I feel like I am arguing with a child here What is your memory like ? The team that emery left behind would have got the cone boy sacked too except the club stood in and paid those players to fcuk off, so dont for one suggest that the cone boy was able to handle them better than emery did

Secondly I AM SAYING that this liverpool team is the poorest team they have had in years - make no mistake, their front line is masking a lot of their weaknesses, but yet you reckon they are better than us so what does that say for us ??

With all due respect Augie, you're not one for critical thinking either. The point is Arteta knew Emery's team was not good enough and that's why he systematically dismantled it.

Does the below comparison look like a poor team to you?


https://freeimage.host/i/2S1VH2p

[xgtdec]

Klopp joined the scousers 4 years before Arteta joined Arsenal, so when Arteta has been at the club for 7 years will you say that Liverpool have been building for 11 years? After Arteta's 10th season will you say that Klopp arrived 14 years ago? Is there a point at which you think Arteta can be fairly judged without reference to the success or failings of other teams? Oh and just a word about your disingenuous stats....somewhere you said that in his first 5 years Klopp only won one league title, but you conveniently overlooked the CL he won. Also, check out his points totals when just missing out to City in the league.

This comes down to how many of the current playing squad is carried over by the succeeding manager. It is quite funny how some of you are keen to highlight the fact that Arteta won the FA Cup with Emery's team yet want to dismiss the notion Slot of benefitting from the squad Klopp built. The difference is the core of Liverpool's squad has been in place for a significant period, still producing the highest quality, and consequently didn't need to be overhauled by Slot. Yes I know they won the CL in his 4th season but I was specifically referring to the league which is where a team's performance should be judged. I'm also fully aware of their points total when missing out on the league to City. Everything is relative.

As for us winning the league 3 times if there was no pimped City, how'd you arrive at that? We've been second twice under Arteta and the highest placing other than that is 5th.

Is that you misquoting? I said our record last season would've won us the league in 3 seasons out of 5 without the state sponsored club. It's a juxtaposition.

Arsenal last season - 89points GD+62

2023/24 Champions - City - 91points GD +62.
2022/23 Champions - City - 89pointys GD+61
2020/21 Champions - City - 86Points GD +51

So, and I may have this wrong, if you win the champions league but you don’t win your domestic league then your going to be judged more harshly because the domestic league is the one that counts??

And I don’t know if there’s an answer to this, we might need a history buff……has there ever been a bang average side to win the champion’s league and not do a whole lot else??

[Retro Gunner]

You're also wrong about Klopp strengthening their ageing midfield last summer. He bought Gakpo in January 2023 and Gravenberch in summer 2023.

Sorry Klopp also bought Szoboszlai, Mac Allister and made Curtis Jones a regular starter. Henderson, Fabinho and the injury prone Thiago Alcantara were effectively replaced in the summer of 2023. It is impossible to have an honest debate when your perception of Liverpool is evidently not very well researched.

An honest debate with you moving goalposts all the time.

Firstly, you were the one who said they strengthened “last summer”. Last summer was 2024 not 2023, so nothing wrong with my research about “last summer”. I referred to Gakpo and Gravenberch having been bought in Jan and summer of 2023, because those were the two you included in the list of 7 you’d put into our starting lineup.

I’m happy to talk about Szoboszlai and MacAllister, but I wouldn't want either at the Arsenal and particularly not the Hungarian. As for making Curtis Jones a “regular starter”, what has that got to do with anything? He’s been at the club for years and is another I wouldn’t want at our club. Still, if you rate him then it’s another pat on the back for Slot, because he’s the one who has made him more of a fixture. He’s already started more games this season than he managed all last term.

Can you give me a heads up if you’re going to move the goalposts or misrepresent me again?

[General]

Liverpool are a good momentum side who have had a lovely run playing crap teams and better sides who have been on the turn. They have also played no one away apart from us. They’ve also had no injuries to key players and no strange refereeing decisions. When you go on a run like that then everything looks rosy. Let’s see what happens by the end of the season. Once they have gone away to everyone we can see where everyone is at. I maintain that we have had some strange luck. Losing Odegaard is like them losing Salah for several games.

I tried to link an image showing the table at this stage last season but the fecking thing won't upload. Here is another link
https://www.premierleague.com/tables?co=1&se=578&ha=-1

Last season (this season in brackets)
Liverpool - 19games - 42points (18games, 45points)
Arsenal - 19games - 40 points (19games, 39points)

So we are a point off last season's total and scouse are 3points better with a game in hand. It was at this stage that we lost to West Ham and Fulham, 2 devastating results that ultimately helped seal our fate.

We eventually finished 7points ahead of Liverpool which meant a 9point swing.

The data shows Liverpool would find it hard to maintain this form for the rest of the season but it will be hard to catch them if they build enough buffer.

[augie]

My point remains that if the cone boys fan boy believes that we can only get 4 players into an average victims team, and that only two of those 4 players were cone boy signings, then how can he claim that £800m has been well spent and how can he argue that he should be allowed spend more ? There is no valid argument he can make and he knows it

Having 4 Arsenal players in the Liverpool team doesn't mean our team is substandard. It was simply meant to illustrate that man for man Liverpool have a superior team. You could make an argument to include more of our players in the combined team because football is a team sport and in certain areas we are better as a unit, but it's no longer an honest argument when you dismiss them as an average team.
Jesus., Zinchenko, Partey, White etc were acquired to help stablise the club and they played their part in our resurgence. We've now outgrown them and need better quality. Not every player Arteta bought has been a success and that's just football. It took Klopp 5years to win the PL. As for Emery, the team he left behind couldn't save him from the sack. What does that tell you.

I feel like I am arguing with a child here What is your memory like ? The team that emery left behind would have got the cone boy sacked too except the club stood in and paid those players to fcuk off, so dont for one suggest that the cone boy was able to handle them better than emery did

Secondly I AM SAYING that this liverpool team is the poorest team they have had in years - make no mistake, their front line is masking a lot of their weaknesses, but yet you reckon they are better than us so what does that say for us ??

With all due respect Augie, you're not one for critical thinking either. The point is Arteta knew Emery's team was not good enough and that's why he systematically dismantled it.

Does the below comparison look like a poor team to you?


https://freeimage.host/i/2S1VH2p

Liar liar pants on fire - he dismantled emery's team cos he too couldnt control the disruptive players in the squad. Its comical that you are trying to rewrite that because it is one of the things that brought your cone boy so much praise publicly. It's also foolish to be AGAIN slating the previous team as not good enough when it was the only team that won him a trophy, so in a backhanded way you are basically criticising the way he spent £800m - welcome to that club

[General]

You're also wrong about Klopp strengthening their ageing midfield last summer. He bought Gakpo in January 2023 and Gravenberch in summer 2023.

Sorry Klopp also bought Szoboszlai, Mac Allister and made Curtis Jones a regular starter. Henderson, Fabinho and the injury prone Thiago Alcantara were effectively replaced in the summer of 2023. It is impossible to have an honest debate when your perception of Liverpool is evidently not very well researched.

An honest debate with you moving goalposts all the time.

Firstly, you were the one who said they strengthened “last summer”. Last summer was 2024 not 2023, so nothing wrong with my research about “last summer”. I referred to Gakpo and Gravenberch having been bought in Jan and summer of 2023, because those were the two you included in the list of 7 you’d put into our starting lineup.

I’m happy to talk about Szoboszlai and MacAllister, but I wouldn't want either at the Arsenal and particularly not the Hungarian. As for making Curtis Jones a “regular starter”, what has that got to do with anything? He’s been at the club for years and is another I wouldn’t want at our club. Still, if you rate him then it’s another pat on the back for Slot, because he’s the one who has made him more of a fixture. He’s already started more games this season than he managed all last term.

Can you give me a heads up if you’re going to move the goalposts or misrepresent me again?

Klopp was not there in the summer of 2024 so when I say he (Klopp not they) strengthened their ageing midfield last summer, it means the summer of 2023. This can't be difficult to grasp surely. Anybody who has been paying attention to a close competitor like Liverpool would immediately connect the dots because it was a major rebuild, which Slot has benefitted from. What I included in the combined team and the strengthening work Klopp did, were two completely independent points. I didn't include Szoboszlai and McAllsiter because I believe we have better players in Odegaard and Rice. Again, you're mixing the two points and then blaming misrepesentation on my part. This is all posturinng and a complete waste of time.

[Limerick Gooner]

A couple of people are wedded to this idea that Arteta dismantled Emery’s side unnecessarily. I have already asked the question “who from that squad should still be at Arsenal?”. So far I have heard silence. Please do enlighten me.

Because if in fact you agree that there was no one other than Saka that we could have kept, then most of that £800m was spent on building a squad, not adding flourishes to it like Liverpool have been doing. This £800m figure to build a title winning squad from scratch is not a lot in the modern day.

[Retro Gunner]

Klopp joined the scousers 4 years before Arteta joined Arsenal, so when Arteta has been at the club for 7 years will you say that Liverpool have been building for 11 years? After Arteta's 10th season will you say that Klopp arrived 14 years ago? Is there a point at which you think Arteta can be fairly judged without reference to the success or failings of other teams? Oh and just a word about your disingenuous stats....somewhere you said that in his first 5 years Klopp only won one league title, but you conveniently overlooked the CL he won. Also, check out his points totals when just missing out to City in the league.

This comes down to how many of the current playing squad is carried over by the succeeding manager. It is quite funny how some of you are keen to highlight the fact that Arteta won the FA Cup with Emery's team yet want to dismiss the notion Slot of benefitting from the squad Klopp built. The difference is the core of Liverpool's squad has been in place for a significant period, still producing the highest quality, and consequently didn't need to be overhauled by Slot. Yes I know they won the CL in his 4th season but I was specifically referring to the league which is where a team's performance should be judged. I'm also fully aware of their points total when missing out on the league to City. Everything is relative.

As for us winning the league 3 times if there was no pimped City, how'd you arrive at that? We've been second twice under Arteta and the highest placing other than that is 5th.

Is that you misquoting? I said our record last season would've won us the league in 3 seasons out of 5 without the state sponsored club. It's a juxtaposition.

Arsenal last season - 89points GD+62

2023/24 Champions - City - 91points GD +62.
2022/23 Champions - City - 89pointys GD+61
2020/21 Champions - City - 86Points GD +51

Fair enough on the points total comment, I misunderstood that, but to apply last season’s total to every season as evidence of something is bizarre. Didn’t Liverpool get something like 98 or 99 points on a couple of occasions when runners up to City. You could say that if you remove City from the equation that total would have given them almost every PL title there’s been….and it totally eclipses our 91 points. You simply can’t apply a points total to other seasons because it completely ignores the strength of the other 19 teams for each season. Some seasons are far more competitive overall than others.

As for your other paragraph, overlooking a CL trophy is odd to say the least. You seem to apply only yardsticks that suit a particular point you’re trying to make. As for Arteta winning the FA Cup with Emery’s side, the point isn’t that anyone (well me for sure) thinks Emery’s team was particularly good, the point is that Arteta has won fuck all with his own costly team. As for Liverpool, Slot has undoubtedly hit the ground running and moulded the team he inherited into a side that is more than the sum of its parts (acknowledgement xgtdec). Arteta’s five years is plenty long enough to build a side, especially when the cheque book has been very generous and this is very much Arteta’s chosen team. He’s the one that stuck with Xhaka, that got shot of ESR and that thought that Havertz, Jesus, Vieira, Partey and Merino (amongst others) were the answers we needed.

Of course, in that paragraph you ignored the main part of the question I asked, namely, at what point will you be prepared to judge Arteta without referring to the successes or failures of other teams? How long does he have to be in situ before you judge him on his successes or failures….another year? Two years? Five? Using other clubs as a yardstick is small club mentality. It’s how spurs rate their succcess against whatever we achieve. Big clubs set their own standards.

[Retro Gunner]

You're also wrong about Klopp strengthening their ageing midfield last summer. He bought Gakpo in January 2023 and Gravenberch in summer 2023.

Sorry Klopp also bought Szoboszlai, Mac Allister and made Curtis Jones a regular starter. Henderson, Fabinho and the injury prone Thiago Alcantara were effectively replaced in the summer of 2023. It is impossible to have an honest debate when your perception of Liverpool is evidently not very well researched.

An honest debate with you moving goalposts all the time.

Firstly, you were the one who said they strengthened “last summer”. Last summer was 2024 not 2023, so nothing wrong with my research about “last summer”. I referred to Gakpo and Gravenberch having been bought in Jan and summer of 2023, because those were the two you included in the list of 7 you’d put into our starting lineup.

I’m happy to talk about Szoboszlai and MacAllister, but I wouldn't want either at the Arsenal and particularly not the Hungarian. As for making Curtis Jones a “regular starter”, what has that got to do with anything? He’s been at the club for years and is another I wouldn’t want at our club. Still, if you rate him then it’s another pat on the back for Slot, because he’s the one who has made him more of a fixture. He’s already started more games this season than he managed all last term.

Can you give me a heads up if you’re going to move the goalposts or misrepresent me again?

Klopp was not there in the summer of 2024 so when I say he (Klopp not they) strengthened their ageing midfield last summer, it means the summer of 2023. This can't be difficult to grasp surely. Anybody who has been paying attention to a close competitor like Liverpool would immediately connect the dots because it was a major rebuild, which Slot has benefitted from. What I included in the combined team and the strengthening work Klopp did, which Slot has benefitted from, were two completely independent points. I didn't include Szoboszlai and McAllsiter because I believe we have better players in Odegaard and Rice. Again, you're mixing the two points and then blaming misrepesentation on my part. This is all posturinng and a complete waste of time.

It’s like grappling with an eel. The goalposts are on wheels. I can’t be bothered to scroll back to see if you said “they” strengthened last summmer, but I’m pretty sure that you didn’t say that the team was strengthened in Klopp’s last summmer. You’ve said Klopp strengthened the side but when you talk about the team being strengthened last summer, then anyone will assume you mean 2024. In fact, you made the point that they bought a 3rd string keeper and the apparition Chiesa, so you clearly claimed they strengthened in summer 2024.

To be honest, I can’t keep doing this and getting drawn into the semantics of a simple discussion. In my opinion, Slot has replaced an iconic manager and is currently over achieving with that side, while Arteta has the team he built and that team is looking less assured than in the previous two seasons.

[General]

Klopp joined the scousers 4 years before Arteta joined Arsenal, so when Arteta has been at the club for 7 years will you say that Liverpool have been building for 11 years? After Arteta's 10th season will you say that Klopp arrived 14 years ago? Is there a point at which you think Arteta can be fairly judged without reference to the success or failings of other teams? Oh and just a word about your disingenuous stats....somewhere you said that in his first 5 years Klopp only won one league title, but you conveniently overlooked the CL he won. Also, check out his points totals when just missing out to City in the league.

This comes down to how many of the current playing squad is carried over by the succeeding manager. It is quite funny how some of you are keen to highlight the fact that Arteta won the FA Cup with Emery's team yet want to dismiss the notion Slot of benefitting from the squad Klopp built. The difference is the core of Liverpool's squad has been in place for a significant period, still producing the highest quality, and consequently didn't need to be overhauled by Slot. Yes I know they won the CL in his 4th season but I was specifically referring to the league which is where a team's performance should be judged. I'm also fully aware of their points total when missing out on the league to City. Everything is relative.

As for us winning the league 3 times if there was no pimped City, how'd you arrive at that? We've been second twice under Arteta and the highest placing other than that is 5th.

Is that you misquoting? I said our record last season would've won us the league in 3 seasons out of 5 without the state sponsored club. It's a juxtaposition.

Arsenal last season - 89points GD+62

2023/24 Champions - City - 91points GD +62.
2022/23 Champions - City - 89pointys GD+61
2020/21 Champions - City - 86Points GD +51

So, and I may have this wrong, if you win the champions league but you don’t win your domestic league then your going to be judged more harshly because the domestic league is the one that counts??

And I don’t know if there’s an answer to this, we might need a history buff……has there ever been a bang average side to win the champion’s league and not do a whole lot else??

I wouldn'ty say judged more harshly but if you owned a PL club, what would you rather win? The European Cup or the League Title.
Looking at recent records - Chelsea finished 6th in 2012 with 64points and won the CL. They won it again in 2021 but finished 4th with 67points. AC Milan won it in 2007 and finished 4th in their domestic league with 61points They didn't necessarily win it but a fairly average Spurs side made the final and finished 4th with 71points in 2021. So yes bang average sides have won it or come close when the stars have aligned. Having said this, the Liverpool team that won it under Klopp in 2019 was very good as reflected in their 97points tally in the league.

[OneBardGooner]

Holy Bejesus Thrice Shyte & Christ is This Bollocks Still Going On!???


Opinons.

Everybody has an opinion on Arsenal FC etc etc etc. and each opinion is Unique, BUT an Opinion is merely the sounding off of the Ego (*); that bit of the human being that thinks IT is Right and Better than everyone and everything else and just because someone else has a different opinion to another does not make them right or wrong ... so Fer Fucks Sake PLEASE post something of interest, something entertaining, something worth reading.

Mind you that is only my Opinion.


(*) The Ego is responsible for all the Ills, wars, conflicts etc in the World. One people / country / religion believe and say theirs is the right one etc sadly they are willing to do the most Ungodly things to try and prove their 'Opinion' is correct.

[DB10GOONER]

Liverpool are a good momentum side who have had a lovely run playing crap teams and better sides who have been on the turn. They have also played no one away apart from us. They’ve also had no injuries to key players and no strange refereeing decisions. When you go on a run like that then everything looks rosy. Let’s see what happens by the end of the season. Once they have gone away to everyone we can see where everyone is at. I maintain that we have had some strange luck. Losing Odegaard is like them losing Salah for several games.

I tried to link an image showing the table at this stage last season but the fecking thing won't upload. Here is another link
https://www.premierleague.com/tables?co=1&se=578&ha=-1

Last season (this season in brackets)
Liverpool - 19games - 42points (18games, 45points)
Arsenal - 19games - 40 points (19games, 39points)

So we are a point off last season's total and scouse are 3points better with a game in hand. It was at this stage that we lost to West Ham and Fulham, 2 devastating results that ultimately helped seal our fate.

We eventually finished 7points ahead of Liverpool which meant a 9point swing.

The data shows Liverpool would find it hard to maintain this form for the rest of the season but it will be hard to catch them if they build enough buffer.

Once you post unqualified stats with only a quantifier but no qualifier you lose the argument. I can't be fucked getting into one of your tedious overblown goalpost moving, misquoting, borderline WUMing tit for tat sessions mate, so I'll simply give you the number one and most basic reason your unqualified stats lose you the argument by quoting Retro's post above:

"You simply can’t apply a points total to other seasons because it completely ignores the strength of the other 19 teams for each season. Some seasons are far more competitive overall than others."

One prime example of how stats are the strawman's argument: Legohead Denilson had far superior pass completion stats at Arsenal than Bergkamp. Who would you say was the better player though huh?