As we're unlikely to see terraces again at football, this is the virtual equivalent where you can chat to your hearts content about all football matters and, obviously, Arsenal in particular. This forum encourages all Gooners to visit and contribute so please keep it respectful, clean and topical.
Liverpool are a good momentum side who have had a lovely run playing crap teams and better sides who have been on the turn. They have also played no one away apart from us. They’ve also had no injuries to key players and no strange refereeing decisions. When you go on a run like that then everything looks rosy. Let’s see what happens by the end of the season. Once they have gone away to everyone we can see where everyone is at. I maintain that we have had some strange luck. Losing Odegaard is like them losing Salah for several games.
By the end of the season they'll have won the league. I keep hearing.....just wait, just wait.....until when exactly?? Tbh, we are the one's who look more like dropping points than they do. I cannot even imagine how we'll perform in the business end of the CL
And Salah is banging in goals, like he always does. Odergaard has been pretty much anonymous. I wouldn't compare the two.
For the record, I think this is one of the weakest Liverpool teams in the past 5 years.....and yet they keep winning. This is like the year everyone sat back while Leicester stepped up.
Liverpool are a good momentum side who have had a lovely run playing crap teams and better sides who have been on the turn. They have also played no one away apart from us. They’ve also had no injuries to key players and no strange refereeing decisions. When you go on a run like that then everything looks rosy. Let’s see what happens by the end of the season. Once they have gone away to everyone we can see where everyone is at. I maintain that we have had some strange luck. Losing Odegaard is like them losing Salah for several games.
Last season (this season in brackets)
Liverpool - 19games - 42points (18games, 45points)
Arsenal - 19games - 40 points (19games, 39points)
So we are a point off last season's total and scouse are 3points better with a game in hand. It was at this stage that we lost to West Ham and Fulham, 2 devastating results that ultimately helped seal our fate.
We eventually finished 7points ahead of Liverpool which meant a 9point swing.
The data shows Liverpool would find it hard to maintain this form for the rest of the season but it will be hard to catch them if they build enough buffer.
Once you post unqualified stats with only a quantifier but no qualifier you lose the argument. I can't be fucked getting into one of your tedious overblown goalpost moving, misquoting, borderline WUMing tit for tat sessions mate, so I'll simply give you the number one and most basic reason your unqualified stats lose you the argument by quoting Retro's post above:
"You simply can’t apply a points total to other seasons because it completely ignores the strength of the other 19 teams for each season. Some seasons are far more competitive overall than others."
One prime example of how stats are the strawman's argument: Legohead Denilson had far superior pass completion stats at Arsenal than Bergkamp. Who would you say was the better player though huh?
We know you can't resist sticking your oar in and posting ad hominem rubbish.
I am fully aware of how various factors affect statistics and probability.
What part of the post you quoted do you disagree with?
Last edited by General on Fri Jan 03, 2025 2:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
A couple of people are wedded to this idea that Arteta dismantled Emery’s side unnecessarily. I have already asked the question “who from that squad should still be at Arsenal?”. So far I have heard silence. Please do enlighten me.
Because if in fact you agree that there was no one other than Saka that we could have kept, then most of that £800m was spent on building a squad, not adding flourishes to it like Liverpool have been doing. This £800m figure to build a title winning squad from scratch is not a lot in the modern day.
You'd behard pressed to get a half decent coherent answer from this lot because most are still stuck in stage 4 of the Kulber-Ross grief cycle and keep forgetting that Wenger left in 2018.
My point remains that if the cone boys fan boy believes that we can only get 4 players into an average victims team, and that only two of those 4 players were cone boy signings, then how can he claim that £800m has been well spent and how can he argue that he should be allowed spend more ? There is no valid argument he can make and he knows it
Having 4 Arsenal players in the Liverpool team doesn't mean our team is substandard. It was simply meant to illustrate that man for man Liverpool have a superior team. You could make an argument to include more of our players in the combined team because football is a team sport and in certain areas we are better as a unit, but it's no longer an honest argument when you dismiss them as an average team.
Jesus., Zinchenko, Partey, White etc were acquired to help stablise the club and they played their part in our resurgence. We've now outgrown them and need better quality. Not every player Arteta bought has been a success and that's just football. It took Klopp 5years to win the PL. As for Emery, the team he left behind couldn't save him from the sack. What does that tell you.
I feel like I am arguing with a child here What is your memory like ? The team that emery left behind would have got the cone boy sacked too except the club stood in and paid those players to fcuk off, so dont for one suggest that the cone boy was able to handle them better than emery did
Secondly I AM SAYING that this liverpool team is the poorest team they have had in years - make no mistake, their front line is masking a lot of their weaknesses, but yet you reckon they are better than us so what does that say for us ??
With all due respect Augie, you're not one for critical thinking either. The point is Arteta knew Emery's team was not good enough and that's why he systematically dismantled it.
Does the below comparison look like a poor team to you?
Liar liar pants on fire - he dismantled emery's team cos he too couldnt control the disruptive players in the squad. Its comical that you are trying to rewrite that because it is one of the things that brought your cone boy so much praise publicly. It's also foolish to be AGAIN slating the previous team as not good enough when it was the only team that won him a trophy, so in a backhanded way you are basically criticising the way he spent £800m - welcome to that club
So what's your solution Augie? Who would you have kept from Emery's mighty team?
What do your propose to turn us into title winners?
Interesting point totals......we're 4 points worse off but have two extra games on last season, feels like we have been doing worse but the reality is, we are doing well despite not playing great in most games..........the sign of champions
Having 4 Arsenal players in the Liverpool team doesn't mean our team is substandard. It was simply meant to illustrate that man for man Liverpool have a superior team. You could make an argument to include more of our players in the combined team because football is a team sport and in certain areas we are better as a unit, but it's no longer an honest argument when you dismiss them as an average team.
Jesus., Zinchenko, Partey, White etc were acquired to help stablise the club and they played their part in our resurgence. We've now outgrown them and need better quality. Not every player Arteta bought has been a success and that's just football. It took Klopp 5years to win the PL. As for Emery, the team he left behind couldn't save him from the sack. What does that tell you.
I feel like I am arguing with a child here What is your memory like ? The team that emery left behind would have got the cone boy sacked too except the club stood in and paid those players to fcuk off, so dont for one suggest that the cone boy was able to handle them better than emery did
Secondly I AM SAYING that this liverpool team is the poorest team they have had in years - make no mistake, their front line is masking a lot of their weaknesses, but yet you reckon they are better than us so what does that say for us ??
With all due respect Augie, you're not one for critical thinking either. The point is Arteta knew Emery's team was not good enough and that's why he systematically dismantled it.
Does the below comparison look like a poor team to you?
Liar liar pants on fire - he dismantled emery's team cos he too couldnt control the disruptive players in the squad. Its comical that you are trying to rewrite that because it is one of the things that brought your cone boy so much praise publicly. It's also foolish to be AGAIN slating the previous team as not good enough when it was the only team that won him a trophy, so in a backhanded way you are basically criticising the way he spent £800m - welcome to that club
So what's your solution Augie? Who would you have kept from Emery's mighty team?
What do your propose to turn us into title winners?
While waiting for augie to answer, I’ll offer an opinion. This is off the top of my head without looking up Emery’s squad.
I’d have kept Martinez, who didn’t play in Emery’s first 11, but certainly played under Arteta.
I’d have kept Guendouzi and if we could have ironed out whatever went wrong with Torreira I’d have kept him too. Both were light years ahead of the duffers we’ve had in centre mid, Rice apart.
I can’t recall if ESR played under Emery, but Arteta inherited him either way and I’d definitely have kept him.
Centre mid has been a gaping wound that Arteta has failed to heal imo and those three above would have been a huge boost. Either one alongside Rice would be an upgrade on Partey, Jorginho and Merino.
Using hindsight, Martinez is the obvious one. Don’t agree with keeping either Torreira or Guendouzi. Truly desperate stuff to think they are the answer. Even if they are the three we were keeping though, it’s not exactly game changing stuff is it? It’s not Chelsea selling Salah and De Bruyne.
Arteta built a squad from not a lot. We recouped basically nothing from that squad once you do deals to get rid of Pepe, Auba and Ozil and loads of other pay off deals. We were an effing shit show. A literal United clone. Look at them now. Look at us. We’ve got more transfers right than wrong. We have made mistakes. We’ve cocked up last Summer’s window. But I don’t see the need to ironically throw the baby out with the bath water and get rid of Arteta.
Using hindsight, Martinez is the obvious one. Don’t agree with keeping either Torreira or Guendouzi. Truly desperate stuff to think they are the answer. Even if they are the three we were keeping though, it’s not exactly game changing stuff is it? It’s not Chelsea selling Salah and De Bruyne.
Arteta built a squad from not a lot. We recouped basically nothing from that squad once you do deals to get rid of Pepe, Auba and Ozil and loads of other pay off deals. We were an effing shit show. A literal United clone. Look at them now. Look at us. We’ve got more transfers right than wrong. We have made mistakes. We’ve cocked up last Summer’s window. But I don’t see the need to ironically throw the baby out with the bath water and get rid of Arteta.
Genuine question, if we win nothing this season, or the next, how much longer do we give him?
And Martinez was always a keeper....in more ways than one. I cannot remember who all rated him, but Retro and I definitely did. I just could not understand why we sold him after his run in the side all the way to winning the FA Cup. Then reinstating Ramsdale, then bringing Raya in whilst Ramsdale was still playing, then dumping Ramsdale in the toilet. That was so badly handled. And now Raya, after seemingly improving hugely, is looking as dodgy as hell. We now have 4 ex keepers playing in the PL.
I personally do not believe Arteta will take us to any sort of Cup glory, He seems to have that same unteachable personality that Wenger displayed
Using hindsight, Martinez is the obvious one. Don’t agree with keeping either Torreira or Guendouzi. Truly desperate stuff to think they are the answer. Even if they are the three we were keeping though, it’s not exactly game changing stuff is it? It’s not Chelsea selling Salah and De Bruyne.
Arteta built a squad from not a lot. We recouped basically nothing from that squad once you do deals to get rid of Pepe, Auba and Ozil and loads of other pay off deals. We were an effing shit show. A literal United clone. Look at them now. Look at us. We’ve got more transfers right than wrong. We have made mistakes. We’ve cocked up last Summer’s window. But I don’t see the need to ironically throw the baby out with the bath water and get rid of Arteta.
Now you’re misrepresenting and moving goalposts.
The question wasn’t “who was the answer?” in global terms, it was which members of the squad should we have kept, particularly in relation to those we’ve replaced them with. The three midfielders I’ve listed were, in my opinion, better than our current centre mids, excluding Rice.
Of course they aren’t Salah or De Bruyne, but you’re straw manning and misrepresenting, because I in no way suggested they were, but you know what? Neither are fucking Partey, Metino, Vieira, or Jorginho. I’d take the three I listed over those duds any day.
Using hindsight, Martinez is the obvious one. Don’t agree with keeping either Torreira or Guendouzi. Truly desperate stuff to think they are the answer. Even if they are the three we were keeping though, it’s not exactly game changing stuff is it? It’s not Chelsea selling Salah and De Bruyne.
Arteta built a squad from not a lot. We recouped basically nothing from that squad once you do deals to get rid of Pepe, Auba and Ozil and loads of other pay off deals. We were an effing shit show. A literal United clone. Look at them now. Look at us. We’ve got more transfers right than wrong. We have made mistakes. We’ve cocked up last Summer’s window. But I don’t see the need to ironically throw the baby out with the bath water and get rid of Arteta.
Now you’re misrepresenting and moving goalposts.
The question wasn’t “who was the answer?” in global terms, it was which members of the squad should we have kept, particularly in relation to those we’ve replaced them with. The three midfielders I’ve listed were, in my opinion, better than our current centre mids, excluding Rice.
Of course they aren’t Salah or De Bruyne, but you’re straw manning and misrepresenting, because I in no way suggested they were, but you know what? Neither are fucking Partey, Metino, Vieira, or Jorginho. I’d take the three I listed over those duds any day.
Guendouzi and Torreira simply aren’t better than what we have now. What are they up to now anyway?
Using hindsight, Martinez is the obvious one. Don’t agree with keeping either Torreira or Guendouzi. Truly desperate stuff to think they are the answer. Even if they are the three we were keeping though, it’s not exactly game changing stuff is it? It’s not Chelsea selling Salah and De Bruyne.
Arteta built a squad from not a lot. We recouped basically nothing from that squad once you do deals to get rid of Pepe, Auba and Ozil and loads of other pay off deals. We were an effing shit show. A literal United clone. Look at them now. Look at us. We’ve got more transfers right than wrong. We have made mistakes. We’ve cocked up last Summer’s window. But I don’t see the need to ironically throw the baby out with the bath water and get rid of Arteta.
Genuine question, if we win nothing this season, or the next, how much longer do we give him?
And Martinez was always a keeper....in more ways than one. I cannot remember who all rated him, but Retro and I definitely did. I just could not understand why we sold him after his run in the side all the way to winning the FA Cup. Then reinstating Ramsdale, then bringing Raya in whilst Ramsdale was still playing, then dumping Ramsdale in the toilet. That was so badly handled. And now Raya, after seemingly improving hugely, is looking as dodgy as hell. We now have 4 ex keepers playing in the PL.
I personally do not believe Arteta will take us to any sort of Cup glory, He seems to have that same unteachable personality that Wenger displayed
Martinez wanted to be guaranteed number 1 to sign a new contract. We said we couldn’t guarantee that even though he may well have been number 1. Without that assurance he asked to leave and we sold him. Looks poor business in hindsight but the guy’s a massive ego and if you look past his penalty antics (illegal antics by the way), he makes great saves but plenty of clangers. He is not the difference between us winning the League or not.
In terms of winning things, I would say we are going to be there or thereabouts but no guarantee of winning anything. We have come up against a juggernaut for the last 2 seasons. We bottled nothing last season. The previous season we were short at centre back which cost us. This season Liverpool have come out the blocks and even if we had not dropped the points we have it would be a coin toss who wins it.
The question I have is, who we think would be better than Arteta. Also, is it worth risking a solid team which is there or thereabouts to gamble on a new manager with new ideas who may get it all wrong? I was anti Wenger from the mid-2000s so I am no apologist for Arsenal managers. But who do we think would take us to the next level? Is it a Manager that would get more out of the current squad or are you saying Arteta is reluctant to buy new players and we need a manager who will buy the key players we need? I reckon it isn’t Arteta doing the recruitment. I think the Club has to stick to PSR and is buying what they can from the player pool. We also have the likes of Sesko who refused to come in the Summer.
Using hindsight, Martinez is the obvious one. Don’t agree with keeping either Torreira or Guendouzi. Truly desperate stuff to think they are the answer. Even if they are the three we were keeping though, it’s not exactly game changing stuff is it? It’s not Chelsea selling Salah and De Bruyne.
Arteta built a squad from not a lot. We recouped basically nothing from that squad once you do deals to get rid of Pepe, Auba and Ozil and loads of other pay off deals. We were an effing shit show. A literal United clone. Look at them now. Look at us. We’ve got more transfers right than wrong. We have made mistakes. We’ve cocked up last Summer’s window. But I don’t see the need to ironically throw the baby out with the bath water and get rid of Arteta.
The cone boy has made 34 signings since becoming AFC manager - name 18 good ones so
Using hindsight, Martinez is the obvious one. Don’t agree with keeping either Torreira or Guendouzi. Truly desperate stuff to think they are the answer. Even if they are the three we were keeping though, it’s not exactly game changing stuff is it? It’s not Chelsea selling Salah and De Bruyne.
Arteta built a squad from not a lot. We recouped basically nothing from that squad once you do deals to get rid of Pepe, Auba and Ozil and loads of other pay off deals. We were an effing shit show. A literal United clone. Look at them now. Look at us. We’ve got more transfers right than wrong. We have made mistakes. We’ve cocked up last Summer’s window. But I don’t see the need to ironically throw the baby out with the bath water and get rid of Arteta.
The cone boy has made 34 signings since becoming AFC manager - name 18 good ones so
I will answer your question once you have answered mine.
Using hindsight, Martinez is the obvious one. Don’t agree with keeping either Torreira or Guendouzi. Truly desperate stuff to think they are the answer. Even if they are the three we were keeping though, it’s not exactly game changing stuff is it? It’s not Chelsea selling Salah and De Bruyne.
Arteta built a squad from not a lot. We recouped basically nothing from that squad once you do deals to get rid of Pepe, Auba and Ozil and loads of other pay off deals. We were an effing shit show. A literal United clone. Look at them now. Look at us. We’ve got more transfers right than wrong. We have made mistakes. We’ve cocked up last Summer’s window. But I don’t see the need to ironically throw the baby out with the bath water and get rid of Arteta.
The cone boy has made 34 signings since becoming AFC manager - name 18 good ones so
I will answer your question once you have answered mine.
Using hindsight, Martinez is the obvious one. Don’t agree with keeping either Torreira or Guendouzi. Truly desperate stuff to think they are the answer. Even if they are the three we were keeping though, it’s not exactly game changing stuff is it? It’s not Chelsea selling Salah and De Bruyne.
Arteta built a squad from not a lot. We recouped basically nothing from that squad once you do deals to get rid of Pepe, Auba and Ozil and loads of other pay off deals. We were an effing shit show. A literal United clone. Look at them now. Look at us. We’ve got more transfers right than wrong. We have made mistakes. We’ve cocked up last Summer’s window. But I don’t see the need to ironically throw the baby out with the bath water and get rid of Arteta.
The cone boy has made 34 signings since becoming AFC manager - name 18 good ones so
Are you using this info from Transfermarkt? 34 signings apparently. If this is your source then it would make sense to check it. Running through, we have a few issues. Matt Ryan on loan is a signing. I don’t agree. Cedric Soares initial loan and then purchase is in twice. Nope. It’s one purchase. I don’t think this was a good one. Neto loan is also in here. Is that a signing? I wouldn’t say so. Odegaard is in twice. Loan and purchase. Surely one counts. Pablo Mari is also in twice. Loan, then we bought him. Only count that once in my book. So stripping out loans we come down to 29 actual signings. Yes there are some duds. No Pepes in there though. Also the likes of Auston Trusty was clearly never for the first team. He was sold on at a profit after a short period on loan in the Championship. 28 signings therefore. The vast majority successful.
What is your memory like ? The team that emery left behind would have got the cone boy sacked too except the club stood in and paid those players to fcuk off, so dont for one suggest that the cone boy was able to handle them better than emery did
