SORRY,, WHERE NOT GOOD ENOUGH

As we're unlikely to see terraces again at football, this is the virtual equivalent where you can chat to your hearts content about all football matters and, obviously, Arsenal in particular. This forum encourages all Gooners to visit and contribute so please keep it respectful, clean and topical.
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Galasso
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Post by Galasso »

gus ceasar is a legend wrote:I will reply to this in the morning when I am sober ........

and when I am sure that Magic Hats comments are real and I have not just walked theough a wardrobe into Narnia!

:lol:

My God this place is getting daft!

:twisted:
gus

Are you ever sober?? :wink:

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U.F.G Anfield '89
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Post by U.F.G Anfield '89 »

I can't believe everyone is already predicting the apocalypse after 3 games, in my heart of hearts i don't think we'll win the title this season, and i agree that mr wenger needs to have a go at the transfer market. but isn't predicting disaster after 3 games jumping the gun a little especially since we've taken 7 points from those 3 games and if not for a certain mad german would have kept 3 clean sheets.

So we labour to score against industrious, physical teams with a heavily defensive set up, what's new? everyone does, the difference so far this season is that we've actually competed physically and ground them down. the arguement that the teams we've played are shit, i don't agree Man City are a good side who had a 100% record going into the game against us they've looked far and away the best team outside the big four so far this season, we've always struggled against blackburn (even when TH, Bobby Dennis etc. were still here) and if it weren't for a horrendous keeping error we would have almost certainly won by scoring in the first 20 minutes and shutting up shop.

i still don't get why everyone has been having a go at Hleb, he's been our best player this season, it's all very well to say that he was crap yesterday but unless it has escaped everyone's notice HE PROVIDED THE ASSIST FOR OUR GOAL.

now i don't think that it's all smiles and sunshine, there are a lot of concerns; our squad lacks depth etc. etc. etc. but for god's sake have some perspective it's only been 3 games and if we win our game in hand we'll be level on points with chelsea at the top. so please fellow gooners, i implore you, leave the nostradamus stuff at least until we lose our first game.

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gunners-need-steel
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Post by gunners-need-steel »

U.F.G Anfield '89 wrote:I can't believe everyone is already predicting the apocalypse after 3 games, in my heart of hearts i don't think we'll win the title this season, and i agree that mr wenger needs to have a go at the transfer market. but isn't predicting disaster after 3 games jumping the gun a little especially since we've taken 7 points from those 3 games and if not for a certain mad german would have kept 3 clean sheets.

So we labour to score against industrious, physical teams with a heavily defensive set up, what's new? everyone does, the difference so far this season is that we've actually competed physically and ground them down. the arguement that the teams we've played are shit, i don't agree Man City are a good side who had a 100% record going into the game against us they've looked far and away the best team outside the big four so far this season, we've always struggled against blackburn (even when TH, Bobby Dennis etc. were still here) and if it weren't for a horrendous keeping error we would have almost certainly won by scoring in the first 20 minutes and shutting up shop.

i still don't get why everyone has been having a go at Hleb, he's been our best player this season, it's all very well to say that he was crap yesterday but unless it has escaped everyone's notice HE PROVIDED THE ASSIST FOR OUR GOAL.

now i don't think that it's all smiles and sunshine, there are a lot of concerns; our squad lacks depth etc. etc. etc. but for god's sake have some perspective it's only been 3 games and if we win our game in hand we'll be level on points with chelsea at the top. so please fellow gooners, i implore you, leave the nostradamus stuff at least until we lose our first game.
UFG, ur analysis is spot on ... I think too many folks are deluded into incessant pessimism ... We are all very frustrated with the lack of transfer activity, but need to put things in perspective ...

The team is developing, and are showing glimpses that they will get better as the season progresses ... Just give the team a chance to develop and get behind your team ... I am sure Chev$ki fans are singing praises about how great their team is, but they were shit against birmingham and could have lost that match, same against portsmouth .... Also, ManUre 4 matches, 5points (with two robbed points today) ...

For all those that knock AW and other managers, I wonder if you are winning in the fantasy league (or even top 10%) nationawide .. :P :P

Mgt is tough, and often involves taking gambles and making the best of resources available to you ... The team feeds off the fans, and undue pessism and lack of confidence in the team will rub off on the them ... Show these guys some belief and support ..

Football matches are 11-men Vs 11-men, names do not and should not mean that much ... our reserve team should have beat Chev$ki in last season's carling cup (certainly played better than them for most of the match) ...

Eboue Can't Defend
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Post by Eboue Can't Defend »

U.F.G,

There is no need to get carried away mate!! :roll: You start your post by telling us not to over-react yet proceed to do so yourself. :roll:

No-one is predicting an apocalypse or even a disaster. :shock: Indeed, most of us have made the same point that you did at the beginning of your post; namely that we don't think Arsenal can win the title, especially with the lack of depth in our squad!! :roll:

Yes, and some of us are concerned that we will face a bigger battle for a Champion's League place than perhaps we should be having, due in large part to our failure to sign a couple of quality players that we look in need of. :(

As for Hleb being our best player so far this season - I beg to differ. He certainly had a good game against Fulham but was back to his old lack-lustre ways in the Blackburn and Man City games. Hleb had at least half a dozen chances to do what Cesc did - i.e. shoot - from very similar positions inside the opposition box, yet only once did he do so. :x :roll:

Even worse, he left Flamini totally exposed on numerous occasions because too often he was to be found in a central position rather than wide right where he should have been. In the second half I was literally screaming at Hleb to get and stay wide or to drop back and help, yet the guy seemed to think he had a free role to wander where-ever he wanted to and not track back to help the defence.

If Hleb doesn't want to or can't play wide right, and would prefer playing centrally - which everyone agrees is his best position - he should tell the manager and battle for one of those places. However, like Arsene himself has said, everyone would love to play in that free role, but it's not something he is likely to do too often this season.

Personally, I'm not sure if we can play both Rosicky and Hleb in the same team - especially in big matches - because their game is too similar. Given that, I think a choice should be made as to which of them starts regularly and who should begin on the bench.

Although he gets injured way too much, I much prefer Rosicky to Hleb because I feel he offers more threat going forward and also does the hard graft like tracking back and tackling, which Hleb too often over looks. :wink: :lol:

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REB
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Post by REB »

fair points ecd,, in much the same light i still hav 2 see hleb grab a game and do wat hes good at,, takin players on ,, once r twice then he drifts off,, im not that much of a pessimist but a realist,, our squad is still 2 small,, simple,, but not a bad start 2 the season so lets hope it continues,,

Eboue Can't Defend
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Post by Eboue Can't Defend »

gunners-need-steel wrote:..Mgt is tough, and often involves taking gambles and making the best of resources available to you..
That's why they get paid so much - to take the tough decisions! And how can you honestly say that Wenger is making the most of 'the resources available' if he doesn't spend the money that is supposedly there for him to strengthen the squad?

And how, pray tell, do you explain Wenger's insistence that we don't need any new signings - even though the vast majority of Gooners, including yourself and other 'optimists', think we do if we are serious about challenging for the title and other silverware?

I genuinely hope Arsene can pull it off - and if anyone can, he can. But being realistic, a top 4 finish and a couple of decent cup runs is about all we can expect to achieve with the squad the size and quality that it is. :( :wink: :lol:

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Drone
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Post by Drone »

I agree with your comments about Hleb, but id like to ad and RVP and Ros to the same list. In the very short time i watched the game (35 min of second half) Ros and RVP vere shite, they looked like someone kidnape their families and they couldent play for that cause, as for Hleb hi did a bit beter than other because of that assist but he wasted an golden goal when he shooted and not passed the ball to Eduardo in penalty spot. When he dribles he looks like drunk, but i have a filling in da game that he was drunk cause hi couldent match when to shoot and when to pass.
Also why replacing Adebayor when hi was looking wery in form, RVP should been replaced from 60 min. And if this thre playesr that i mentioned dont coordinate with Edu than hi is going to be the bigest mistake on wengers history. :(

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Galasso
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Post by Galasso »

In the second half I was literally screaming at Hleb to get and stay wide or to drop back and help, yet the guy seemed to think he had a free role to wander where-ever he wanted to and not track back to help the defence.
It's a shame that the axe always seems to fall on Hleb's head.

His best games were through the middle and his worst out wide. He didn't help Flamini enough and that was a failing - but he does pretty much have a free(ish) role, as does Rosicky. Neither are wingers, or even traditional wide-men and yet Wenger keeps playing them there. Why do you think that this is? He expects them to cut inside (ala Pires/Ljunberg) and leave the wide (r) duties to the full-backs. Obviously, his experimentation with Eboue might be extended once he returns from injury.

IF we are to keep the same squad, and I am not suggesting that we should (I stated in a post today that the 4-4-2 with these players won't see us challenging and we need some more quality), then I think we must change the system - otherwise the defence is going to continue to be exposed and we are not going to get the best out of resources we have attacking-wise.

Hleb looks almost in a daze at times and his refusal to shoot sometimes is astounding, but he never goes hiding in a game and his high rate of involvement tends to leave a larger imprint on the fans. It's this kind of involvement and refusal to lump the ball anywhere that led to our goal yesterday (and he found Fabregas with a similar ball earlier).

Enough of Hleb. We lack a bit of real quality, something extra, to challenge throughout the season at the top. If not, the next best thing, for me, is to tweak the formation - to try and get the best out of the personnel we already have.

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Galasso
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Post by Galasso »

KAQAK wrote:I agree with your comments about Hleb, but id like to ad and RVP and Ros to the same list. In the very short time i watched the game (35 min of second half) Ros and RVP vere shite, they looked like someone kidnape their families and they couldent play for that cause, as for Hleb hi did a bit beter than other because of that assist but he wasted an golden goal when he shooted and not passed the ball to Eduardo in penalty spot. When he dribles he looks like drunk, but i have a filling in da game that he was drunk cause hi couldent match when to shoot and when to pass.
Also why replacing Adebayor when hi was looking wery in form, RVP should been replaced from 60 min. And if this thre playesr that i mentioned dont coordinate with Edu than hi is going to be the bigest mistake on wengers history. :(
Great stuff KAQAK!!

Rosicky and RvP had their families kidnapped and Hleb was drunk!

That would explain alot of things!

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augie
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Post by augie »

Rebel you beat me to the punch as I was going to start a thread along this line when I returned from the game last night but as my flight home was delayed (thanks again ryanair) i was too knackered to do so.

Anyway my headline was going to run with "Going Nowhere Fast" which I feel seems it all up on two fronts for me right now. Firstly there is a chronic lack of pace and tempo to our gameplan and is a major contribution to our inability to break some teams down. In one of my rare defences of henry(i never went along with most of his hype) i argued last season that a change in strategy meant that we were playing a slower pace through cesc which didnt suit henry and to me this still appears to be the case. When you recall wenger's glory teams they were all built on pace with players like anelka,overmars & henry cruical to the style which we played and we simply do not have that pace in our ranks anymore. What I seen yesterday was, in my opinion, dire shite and a throwback to the years gone by when we seemed like a club going through the motions- we looked like a team that believes that they are good but not good enough and as a result of a lack of leaders and experienced winners in the ranks have nobody to pull the team up and drive them on.

This leads me to my 2nd point in that as a club we are now going nowhere fast. I am totally in agreement with most on this forum when I say that potential counts for f*ck all in the real world and I am getting pissed off hearing fans spout on about the outstanding potential in our ranks. Lets just focus on the here and now for a while shall we because nobody, not even wenger can legislate for what can happen in the years it takes between now and when these kids "mature". Like most gooners over the summer I am totally and I mean totally pissed off at the transfer activity at the club this summer. As bad as it is not signing enough players to assist us to step up a level or 2, we are now sending the players we need(djouru) on loan to our reserve club(sorry i mean birmingham) leaving us with an even smaller squad than last season and this aint good enough for me. We have a shocking lack of quality in this squad that demands immediate investment if we are serious about being a big club and not an also ran. It is so true that right now we would struggle to get 3 players into the first 11's of any of our so called rivals which tells its own story - the comment early on this thread about mascherano being the only player in the prem that can do the job that gilberto does better sums it all up for me as the argie is only seen as 4th choice in liverpool's centre midfield.

As a club we seem totally underless right now and sorry for bringing it up again but we are badly missing the drive of dein to push our club forward. I used to think that wenger signing a new contract will settle those fears but I no longer believe that his signing can smooth over the increasing cracks. The current board seem unable to provide the necessary funds to even keep up with the jones never mind overtake them and the only thing they seem to offer is continuity and their pledge of dying love for our club and while that may be admirable it aint going to keep our best players and it certainly wont entice any new stars. Wenger's actions or lack of actions of late certainly warrents some criticism and I do not for one minute believe that his outstanding acheivements in the past excludes him from criticisms. If 99% of the fans can see that this squad needs new bodies do you think it would be fair to assume that the players can see it too ? The lack of positive investment sends out bad signals to the fans and players who know that what is needed to win at the top level is in short supply in our club and this contributes to a total lathargy that we are witnessing on the pitch these days. I dont go along with the arguement that it is up to the fans to lift the team during matches and feel it should be the other way around (I dont expect many of my customers to help gee me up for my days work) but to be fair to the players it must be hard to motivate themselves constantly when it appears that the club as a whole lacks motivation and ambition.

What I would like to see from here (apart from the much needed signings of course) is some collective responsibilty taken from here on -
We need either to board or manager to come clean and tell us which of them are handicapping our clubs progress - it is wengers unwillingness to spend or the boards lack of investment because somebody has to take the blame here.
Secondly we need our players to step up to the players on a day like yesterday and grap this team up by the collars and drive them on. I know some of you will argue that we did that yesterday & won the game but I cannot agree with this - their kid in goal had f*ck all to do all match,they created more clear chances than we did and we really have dropped our standards quite low if we really believe that battling to victories over the likes of fulham & citeeh is progress. I dont see it that way and no amount of upbeat responses from the rose tinted few will make me think otherwise. :cry: :cry: :cry:

Magic Hat
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Post by Magic Hat »

Hasn't anyone said that cash is aviliable so clearly it is Arsene choosing not to spend it for whatever reason he has. Augie, the league has been tough this past week, Man City have struggled to break down defences and lucked their one win, Chelsea like Arsenal have got away with victories rather then playing team's off the park, Liverpool needed a fluke freekick to beat Aston Villa and only beat Tolouse by one goal. Either things have gotten tougher or the big 4 have not got going yet

Article Defending Hleb against Man City

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gunners-need-steel
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Post by gunners-need-steel »

Nice article, and according to the ratings there, Hleb was actually our best player on the day ...

funny contrast: in this forum, our resident experts all have him as the worst player ...

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augie
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Post by augie »

Magic Hat it should be said that your often "blind optimism" is a source of amazement to us all. That said I did not have a go at hleb in my post although I def believe that he merits it. To quote a newspaper article that defends hleb is hardly the sort of thing that will turn the opinions of fans around though is it ? I mean the fans are the ones that watch him week in week out while the journo concerned is probably covering other clubs & matches so I know who I feel is more qualified to pass judgement. When you look at the player's ratings it should also dilute the merits of the article because, without a shadow of a doubt, clichy was yet again the best Arsenal player on the park. How many times did hleb isolate flamini by leaving him 1 against 2 in the 2nd half ? How many times does he find himself in the middle of the park crowding what is already an overly congested area ? Sorry cos although I wont go so far as to say I hate hleb(sorry IHH) i Do believe that he is not good enough and if I thought we would bring in a few players before end of transfer window then I would put him on the next boat out of here.

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Galasso
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Post by Galasso »

augie wrote:Magic Hat it should be said that your often "blind optimism" is a source of amazement to us all. That said I did not have a go at hleb in my post although I def believe that he merits it. To quote a newspaper article that defends hleb is hardly the sort of thing that will turn the opinions of fans around though is it ? I mean the fans are the ones that watch him week in week out while the journo concerned is probably covering other clubs & matches so I know who I feel is more qualified to pass judgement. When you look at the player's ratings it should also dilute the merits of the article because, without a shadow of a doubt, clichy was yet again the best Arsenal player on the park. How many times did hleb isolate flamini by leaving him 1 against 2 in the 2nd half ? How many times does he find himself in the middle of the park crowding what is already an overly congested area ? Sorry cos although I wont go so far as to say I hate hleb(sorry IHH) i Do believe that he is not good enough and if I thought we would bring in a few players before end of transfer window then I would put him on the next boat out of here.
When has Hleb ever played a traditional wide-man role for Arsenal, let alone a winger? Why do you think Wenger keeps on picking him?

I'm just speculating but I think it's because he does what Wenger wants him to do. I think he wants Rosicky and Hleb to do this, and leave the wide duties to the full-backs - I mean, the evidence is there in front of our own eyes. The defence is not normally under a great deal of pressure at home, leaving the full-backs to go forward.

I would prefer Hleb to make better decisions sometimes - i.e. the right time to shoot. But, he plays how he plays, and with the part of Hleb who refuses to lump the ball into the box from wide (which I'm sure would please some to see a shower of aimless crosses coming into the box) and the part of Hleb who makes good runs into the box (winning penalties) and creating goalscoring opportunities - also comes with the infuriating parts.

But, even though people didn't rate his performance on Saturday - and his defending was non-existent - he still created the penalty and goal. Is that not good enough? Maybe we should have a close look at RvP and Rosicky on Saturday and see exactly what they did.

We need more quality in the side to compliment the good players we have at the moment, but not neccesarily at the expense of Hleb.

Maybe the other players shouldn't give him the ball so much!

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All_Arsenal_1886
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Post by All_Arsenal_1886 »

A good write up on the Arsenal, City game saying how good Helb is and how he won us the game.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/ ... 332226.ece

For me MOTM was Gael or Helb i couldn't decide :D

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