The Gooner Forum

marcengels wrote:Did you really have to start this Daniel? What good for the forum do you think will come?

oh fuck here we go again The usual suspects getting involved too

Cockerill's chin wrote:As Quartz may remember from previous discussions, if we carry on with the topic then it will not end in agreement. I have seen the footage I was directed to. I have read the statement by Danny Ayalon. I cannot see this incident as anything other than state sponsored terrorism of an oppressed people by a state which constantly rides roughshod over international law.

For the good of the forum, I will stop posting. I would never have posted on this topic but when innocent civilians on a humanitarian mission are massacred it is a bit rich for you to come on and attempt to explain it away. Tragic incident; vile thread.

Well said

flash gunner wrote:

Cockerill's chin wrote:As Quartz may remember from previous discussions, if we carry on with the topic then it will not end in agreement. I have seen the footage I was directed to. I have read the statement by Danny Ayalon. I cannot see this incident as anything other than state sponsored terrorism of an oppressed people by a state which constantly rides roughshod over international law.

For the good of the forum, I will stop posting. I would never have posted on this topic but when innocent civilians on a humanitarian mission are massacred it is a bit rich for you to come on and attempt to explain it away. Tragic incident; vile thread.

Well said

Have you read anything I wrote in the least 24 hours? Have you seen the videos I posted? If you did, and you still think the people that attacked the Israeli soldiers are Innocent Cevilians that's ridiculous.

Here are your "innocent peace protestors":

Weapons found on the ship 1

Weapons found on the ship 2

Here are the clips again, for your convinience:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcb ... r_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?next_ ... r_embedded

Unless i agreed with you 100% i will always be wrong in your eyes Daniel but why is there general condemnation from world leaders over the ship attacks? Even the UN is calling for an independent investigation and they are normally hand wringers.

Anyway we will never agree on this as i try to look at it from both sides (and can from my nice safe house in Britain) and thats not a dig at you, youre bound to 'stick up' for your side

Personally, I'll try and let this thread stay open as long as it remains civil. Can't speak for my fellow mods.

This is an emotive topic for many people.

I will comment though that I find it a touch ironic that so many British people get so bent out of shape critizising Isreal and supporting the Palestinians. Is it a form of inherited socio-political guilt? Inherited from previous generations that commited attrocities in Australia (against the Aboriginal populace), or America (against the Native Indians), or the many African and Asian countries that fell under the boot of the British Empire?

I would further venture that the (obvious geo-political details aside) situation could be said by some to loosely reflect the British/Irish situation, something that didn't upset too many British people at the time. Being pretty simplistic, Britain could be seen to have played Isreal's role as the invader and certain groups in Ireland the palestinian role as the self-viewed freedom fighters (groups that were viewed EXACTLY the same way by the British and Irish governments as the Palestinians are by Isreal).

Now, I am in no way condoning or supporting any group or violent action that has been perpetrated on, near or by anyone from this country (those mudering bastards did not represent MY Ireland), but my point would be that everyone has a different perspective on things based purely on subjectivity.

Daniel lives with the threat of terrorism every day, we don't. I wonder what our opinions would be if we did though?

The Middle East situation in general is a very sad and frustrating one. I fear there may never be a "solution" to it. The biggest irony for me is that the two main religions that provoke so much of the violence and hatred are so similar in their core values and beliefs.

Sorry to bore the shit out of everyone but I love a good political discussion!!

Oh, and even though it could be read as such, I am not having a pop at you Brits - I love you guys really. My best man is English, I have alot of English and Welsh friends and I support the greatest football team in the world, who just happen to be Engerlish!

My feeling towards the Israeli/Palestinian situation has nothing what so ever to do with the clear wrong-doings of previous generations of Brits taking lands and murdering etc but if anything it might give you a better understanding of how that isnt the way to do things!!!! As i said it is easy for me to have a 'balanced' view safely tucked away in my house in Britain and maybe if lived under the threat of terrorism every day i would have different feelings whether it be on the Israeli or Palestinian side of the border.

Now ive said more than id ever want to on a subject like this on here, the top diplomats in the world cant solve this problem. Only if i agreed with Daniel or Quartz 100% would i be right and this is half the problem

flash gunner wrote:My feeling towards the Israeli/Palestinian situation has nothing what so ever to do with the clear wrong-doings of previous generations of Brits taking lands and murdering etc but if anything it might give you a better understanding of how that isnt the way to do things!!!! As i said it is easy for me to have a 'balanced' view safely tucked away in my house in Britain and maybe if lived under the threat of terrorism every day i would have different feelings whether it be on the Israeli or Palestinian side of the border

I always remember my grandad telling me about the Irish war for independence. It was a particularly bloody and nasty affair. I asked (as a teenager) if my grandad hated the British and he said something that stuck with me for the rest of my life.

He said that no he didn't hate British people as the British people weren't his enemy, it was their government. He said that he didn't even hate the British soldiers he fought against, as he reckoned they didn't want to be there, that most of them had taken the only job they could get and were then unlucky enough to end up in war torn Ireland. He said his own humanity could only come through unscathed by not hating, but by forgiving. A great man, my grandad.

DB10GOONER wrote:

flash gunner wrote:My feeling towards the Israeli/Palestinian situation has nothing what so ever to do with the clear wrong-doings of previous generations of Brits taking lands and murdering etc but if anything it might give you a better understanding of how that isnt the way to do things!!!! As i said it is easy for me to have a 'balanced' view safely tucked away in my house in Britain and maybe if lived under the threat of terrorism every day i would have different feelings whether it be on the Israeli or Palestinian side of the border

I always remember my grandad telling me about the Irish war for independence. It was a particularly bloody and nasty affair. I asked (as a teenager) if my grandad hated the British and he said something that stuck with me for the rest of my life.

He said that no he didn't hate British people as the British people weren't his enemy, it was their government. He said that he didn't even hate the British soldiers he fought against, as he reckoned they didn't want to be there, that most of them had taken the only job they could get and were then unlucky enough to end up in war torn Ireland. He said his own humanity could only come through unscathed by not hating, but by forgiving. A great man, my grandad.

Im sure youre right (or your grandad was) and because of this i feel no personal guilt what so ever over things the county i was born into have done years ago, therefore i can judge middle east situation or any other situation for that matter from what i consider to be a balanced view as i try to read both sides of the argument and take my decision or train of thought from my own research

flash gunner wrote:

DB10GOONER wrote:

flash gunner wrote:My feeling towards the Israeli/Palestinian situation has nothing what so ever to do with the clear wrong-doings of previous generations of Brits taking lands and murdering etc but if anything it might give you a better understanding of how that isnt the way to do things!!!! As i said it is easy for me to have a 'balanced' view safely tucked away in my house in Britain and maybe if lived under the threat of terrorism every day i would have different feelings whether it be on the Israeli or Palestinian side of the border

I always remember my grandad telling me about the Irish war for independence. It was a particularly bloody and nasty affair. I asked (as a teenager) if my grandad hated the British and he said something that stuck with me for the rest of my life.

He said that no he didn't hate British people as the British people weren't his enemy, it was their government. He said that he didn't even hate the British soldiers he fought against, as he reckoned they didn't want to be there, that most of them had taken the only job they could get and were then unlucky enough to end up in war torn Ireland. He said his own humanity could only come through unscathed by not hating, but by forgiving. A great man, my grandad.

Im sure youre right (or your grandad was) and because of this i feel no personal guilt what so ever over things the county i was born into have done years ago, therefore i can judge middle east situation or any other situation for that matter from what i consider to be a balanced view as i try to read both sides of the argument and take my decision or train of thought from my own research

I'm 100% sure you do, Flash - you come across as an intelligent bloke. But I was probably refering more to some perceived (by me anyway!) subconcious cultural guilt felt by many of the less "informed" masses and fed by the low brow media. The type of English (and Irish) people that turn up outside the Isreali embassy roaring and screaming their hatred but if you talk to them all they can come up with is a very uninformed, unbalanced "I hate Isreal" type statment but can see absolutely no wrong on the Palestinian side and have very obviously not researched the subject properly and have little understanding of it in it's social, historical or cultural context.

i feel so sorry for israel. always the innocent country when it comes to killing civilians how many were killed on the ship
and how many of them were Israeli solders

international waters but hey this is israel and they dont care about laws
the Israeli government might have withdrawn from Gaza,but they remain occupying force since they decide what gets into Gaza and who gets out of it,â€

Fuck sakes, I just wrote a 1000 lines post and my computer crashed.. I won't write it again, but the main points of it were:

- Flash, I think when you say your views should fit mine, if they are to be right (from me perspective), are wrong. If you're talking about the whole Israel-Palestine situation, then you'll be surprised how split the Israeli society is (me and Quartz has different opinions as well, I reckon).

- Another thing. I'm don't a blind supporter of my goverement, in fact, I don't like our PM and foreign minister, and in general I think our diplomatic efforts were mediocare to say the least in the last few months. In general, you'd be surprised by how different opinions on this matter are at Israel.

- As for the whole ship situation, I just wanted to bring some defferent views and picture to what you saw in your local media. I think anyone who saw the pictures I brought of the "peace activists" on the sixth ship changed his opinions on them.

-DB10, your posts were a delight to read. Thank you.

DB10GOONER wrote:
Britain could be seen to have played Isreal's role as the invader and certain groups in Ireland the palestinian role as the self-viewed freedom fighters (groups that were viewed EXACTLY the same way by the British and Irish governments as the Palestinians are by Isreal).

just how can you compare the two we both grew up with the british army in the north but for the life of me i cant ever remember the british army bombing schools,shooting innocent woman and children, planes dropping bombs and not caring where or who they hurt, bombing republican parts of belfast ,derry etc and not remember ever a humanitarian blockade stopping medical supplies going across the border .

REBEL GOONER wrote:i feel so sorry for israel. always the innocent country when it comes to killing civilians how many were killed on the ship
and how many of them were Israeli solders

international waters but hey this is israel and they dont care about laws

Rebel, have you seen the videos and photos I posted, or you're only interested in what you want to see or hear?

The Israeli soldiers were acting on self defence, after they've been attacked by those "peace activists". If they wouldn't have, they'd be dead.

It was in international waters, but those ships were gaza bound, and the attempt to take over the ship happened there to prevent further chaos in the the Gaza waters.

the Israeli government might have withdrawn from Gaza,but they remain occupying force since they decide what gets into Gaza and who gets out of it,â€

daniel
i wont be posting on this thread again for one good reason,
when it comes to all things palestine there is no winner on a thread, some will be pro and some anti what is going on over there and neither will change there views.

Quartz has drawn my attention to this article....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... lings.html



I just want to deny on the record any involvement in this mess.

On a serious note, as someone has already said, all the great Diplomats and World Leaders for the past 60 years haven't and can't solve this problem so I'm sure as hell the online gooner forum isn't going to either!!! Still, like DB10Gooner, I won't lock this thread whilst it remains relatively civil.

Although I used to love a good political discussion, as far as this particular issue is concerned - I'm out!!!