When will we next win the League?

[QuartzGooner]

The finances have been discussed at length.

All that has been agreed is that there is a good profit for the club, and that there is money to spend but it has not been spent in any great amount of late, even though we all agree the squad needs to be stronger.

Some see the reasons for lack of spending as sinister.

Others see the reasons as infrastructure improvement and recession leading to financial prudence, and managerial priority on youth development.

DISCUSSION DONE!

If only it was that easy

[USMartin]

The thing is Martin is that much of what you write is conjecture. I've agreed with you and disagreed with you in the past. Your problem is that you won't give up until everyone absolutely agrees with you on every point. Is it an ego thing?

Not at all, Frank. It's a matter of simply believeing we all need to know more and should want to know more and we need to know it sooner rather than later, because later it will be well and truly too late even if the worst-case scenario takes hold..

Read my signature it actually is paraphrasing a direct quote form Brian Moore to Liverpool supporters basically stating that had the supporters been more interested in what was actually going on before it happened they might have influenced events to that the club wasn't sold to Hicks and Gillette and made to suffer as it has. The only word I changed was the club name in the quote.

My worry is that he or someone like him could end up reminding us of the very same thing in a few years because we nd up in the very same situation because we simply don't care enough to ask what the Board is doing and why? And that is only part of my fear.

My other fear is we not win the League again until 2020 or later because of these same policies even if we avoid that debt-leveraged nightmare. I know, perspective but would Gooners in the 40s have shown that same perspective if lack of ambition rather than World War Two had ended the run of success through the 1930's under Herbert Chapman, Joe Shaw, and George Aliison?

You don't know the truth - it's impossible as you don't work for the Club, or deal with it. I'll tell you something - I know far more about what goes on at the Club than you'll ever do. Why? Because I've sat in the Board room when Edleman was negotiating with the Banks for Highbury. I'm not going to say anything more than that, because it's confidential information. But I can tell you now that you don't know it all.

No I don't know the absolute truth beyond all doubt. Never have claimed to either. I simply feel there are some very valid questions we should be willing and ready to ask and ask now. I do think I have learned enough given what is available to us to justify that position however.

Out of respect to your circumsatnces I will not ask you anything that would require you to violate any confidentiality agreements but am quite curious on a number of things as you might well imagine.

But again I do not know everything or what it all means for sure but I do know enough to justify our being genuinely concerned in my view enough that we should all want to know more. Once we know then I would agree with you're earlier thread from there "whatever will be will be"

[Henry Norris 1913]

US Martin killed another thread

job done

[frankbutcher]

Martin,

As I've said, I agree with you on a lot of things. IMHO the Club is de--gearing itself too quickly, without balancing it with a successful team on the pitch (we are a Football Club afterall....). Despite what intentions the current owners have, if we get to a position where we are debt free, we will be ripe for a leveraged purchase. Fiszman has suffered from serious illness, Kroenke and Usmanov have their own agendas, and Lady Nina already has her shares up for sale. What will be there to stop them selling up and the new owner using debt to buy the Club...?

Absolutely nothing.

In terms of what is going on at the moment, I suspect that it is a mixture of prudent financial management enforced upon Wenger by the Board, and Wenger having too much faith in youth / sub-standard players. There is a lot to admire in what we do financially, but there are always questions about whether the financial prudence is for the benefit of the Club or for the shareholders. You would think that it would be mutually beneficial for both, but we all know the risks of a debt-free business model that is highly cash generative - you leave yourself open to a purchaser who will leverage thew Club to the hilt.

You're probably already aware that the Club's loan terms insist that a certain proportion of profits must be re--invested in the team year-on-year in either transfer fees or player salaries...the idea being that the Club does not divest itself of all its assets. Arsenal seem to have focussed upon giving un-proven players long-term contracts on big money. I don't see the point of this. The Club is free to do it as per the terms of the Bond, but why pay Denilson and co £30k per week, when you could buy a top drawer player and pay him top money. It might mean we win something.

So, to summarise, I think you're right. We need to keep asking questions of the Board. The problem is that in reality we have no power to do anything. The AST is in the Club's back pocket, and any other challenges to the Board are shot down in flames or tidied under the carpet at the AGM.

One thing that shows we have power is Wenger seemingly listening to the fans and taking the Carling Cup seruously. It's a small step, but perhaps its a sign that the CLub are starting to listen to the fans again. Afterall, if a Club is not successful on the pitch, it can't be successful off of it. Eventually people will walk away and take their money with them. I think this has hit home at the Club and we can expect a serious push for trophies at last.

[MEDINABOY]

ere martin do us all a favour and go and get a job in a chilean mine,for christ sake mate are you totally mutton ,no one wants to here your ramblings you are totally benign.

brady won it beautifully,look at that oh look at that

[USMartin]

Martin,

As I've said, I agree with you on a lot of things. IMHO the Club is de--gearing itself too quickly, without balancing it with a successful team on the pitch (we are a Football Club afterall....). Despite what intentions the current owners have, if we get to a position where we are debt free, we will be ripe for a leveraged purchase. Fiszman has suffered from serious illness, Kroenke and Usmanov have their own agendas, and Lady Nina already has her shares up for sale. What will be there to stop them selling up and the new owner using debt to buy the Club...?

Absolutely nothing.

Maybe but I disagree. I think if supporters put suffiicnt pressure on the Board members regarding this especially given the circumstances at Liverpool and to lesser extent Man U that resulted from taking that same course we might be able to exert more influence - if we are willing to try. You may be right and it may cheive nothing we hope for. But it certainly gives us more a chance than doing nothing at all, no?

In terms of what is going on at the moment, I suspect that it is a mixture of prudent financial management enforced upon Wenger by the Board, and Wenger having too much faith in youth / sub-standard players. There is a lot to admire in what we do financially, but there are always questions about whether the financial prudence is for the benefit of the Club or for the shareholders. You would think that it would be mutually beneficial for both, but we all know the risks of a debt-free business model that is highly cash generative - you leave yourself open to a purchaser who will leverage thew Club to the hilt.

I think that suspicion may be fairly valid - but even then its almost a chicken-and-egg scenario. That is would the manager have continued on this way if not for the financial mangerment enforced upon him by the Board? No one is going to say that Arsene Wenger spent like Rafa Benitez or Jose Mourinho before 2005. But he certainly spent significantly more than Arsene Wenger after 2005 has, so I wonder if its no so much a combination of those two as the first circumstance forcing the second.

The one thing I can't see is the inevitability of a takeover. We are a private business business privately controlled by private ownership. I don;'t have a degree in finance or economice but surely no one has to seel their holdings unless they want to, no? Where not dealing with a high-finance version of eminent domain here are we? And if we aren't does that not mean that anytakeover bid's success is down to the willingness of long-term shareholders to sell out for big profits?

You're probably already aware that the Club's loan terms insist that a certain proportion of profits must be re--invested in the team year-on-year in either transfer fees or player salaries...the idea being that the Club does not divest itself of all its assets. Arsenal seem to have focussed upon giving un-proven players long-term contracts on big money. I don't see the point of this. The Club is free to do it as per the terms of the Bond, but why pay Denilson and co £30k per week, when you could buy a top drawer player and pay him top money. It might mean we win something.

I agree fully really.It strikes me that this policy is purely about saving money to increase profitablilty. If you pay a player who earns 10K 30K yesr you are wasting 20K but if the other option is to pay a player worth 100K 90K and save 10K you still in effect are losing 60K a week and three million a year.

Same applies with transfer fees pay 1 million for the first player when he is worth 100 thousnad and you waste 900 thousand. But if the second player could be gotten for 10 million even if they wanted 12 million meaning you saved two million you still lose 9 million pounds buying him.

Even more long-term. if the first players approaches their postentiall you may stll make a larger actual or percentage profit on them than on the second player when selling them. If you can sell the first player for 10 million and the second for 18 million you made one million more by buying the first player instead of the second. And even if the second could be sold for 22 million, you only made three million more tfor the extra nine million invested.

It's almost the same logic as outsourcing.Why - and I'll use a U.S. Example - pay 15 dollars an hour plus medicial benefits to assemble your product when you can build a factory in Guatemala where you pay 1 dollar an hour and no benefits to build the same product sold at the same price?

So, to summarise, I think you're right. We need to keep asking questions of the Board. The problem is that in reality we have no power to do anything. The AST is in the Club's back pocket, and any other challenges to the Board are shot down in flames or tidied under the carpet at the AGM.

One thing that shows we have power is Wenger seemingly listening to the fans and taking the Carling Cup seruously. It's a small step, but perhaps its a sign that the CLub are starting to listen to the fans again. Afterall, if a Club is not successful on the pitch, it can't be successful off of it. Eventually people will walk away and take their money with them. I think this has hit home at the Club and we can expect a serious push for trophies at last.

I agree a lot here with your initial point - the supposed voices of the supporters are too close to the club let's say to have an impact. The are a part of the Club in effect by the close realtionship to it though I don't know that to be their intent at all.

I wonder about the second part I hope you're right certainly but I'm not sure honestly.

On the manager going for it in the Carling Ciup perhaps that is so but I think we'll have a much better idea on Wednesday really. I can't help but wonder if we had drawn anybody other than s***s if we would have put as team of the same quality out there.

As to this hitting home at the club and a serious push for trophies I am not sure I can see it now as again why would you invest more money if you could fill the stadium just by scraping third or fourth without repercussions?. I agree fully with the logic and soundness of your point, I just worry since bar StanKroenke none of the people paid over 2K a share and many of them never paid a peeny even but inherited theiur shares that well there's nothing for them to lose going down these roads.

[MEDINABOY]

imo,our best hope is if the predictions of financial meltdown at other clubs becomes a reality and the proposed platiniisms screw the chavs and city more than us.the pedicted demise of manure looks possible and one yank is as bad as another so the north west era could be on the skids so will roman hang about ? if it all changes as aw and the board are banking on, our time will come but not through our own labours with aw .when ? ask septic peg.

brady won it beautifully, look at that oh look at that

[Only One Tony Adams]

what was this thread about again....??


...

[AA23Northbank]

what was this thread about again....??


...

Why am I not surprised all this crap has come up again? Talk about dampening my mood after today....

Having said that, my vote is based on typical rosetinter belief....

[FrenchGun]

This season and for all the seasons to come, as long as we are mathematically capable of winning the title, I will believe...



You can always win on a misunderstanding!

[USMartin]

This season and for all the seasons to come, as long as we are mathematically capable of winning the title, I will believe...



You can always win on a misunderstanding!

We all live in hope, FG, what would be the point otherwise.

Just too many people here seem more content to live in hope and ignore reality when they don't like it...

Btw what are talking about with winning on amisunderstanding - just curious because seems like there is a story there I have missed

[aw]

Martin,

As I've said, I agree with you on a lot of things. IMHO the Club is de--gearing itself too quickly, without balancing it with a successful team on the pitch (we are a Football Club afterall....). Despite what intentions the current owners have, if we get to a position where we are debt free, we will be ripe for a leveraged purchase. Fiszman has suffered from serious illness, Kroenke and Usmanov have their own agendas, and Lady Nina already has her shares up for sale. What will be there to stop them selling up and the new owner using debt to buy the Club...?

Absolutely nothing.

Maybe but I disagree. I think if supporters put suffiicnt pressure on the Board members regarding this especially given the circumstances at Liverpool and to lesser extent Man U that resulted from taking that same course we might be able to exert more influence - if we are willing to try. You may be right and it may cheive nothing we hope for. But it certainly gives us more a chance than doing nothing at all, no?

In terms of what is going on at the moment, I suspect that it is a mixture of prudent financial management enforced upon Wenger by the Board, and Wenger having too much faith in youth / sub-standard players. There is a lot to admire in what we do financially, but there are always questions about whether the financial prudence is for the benefit of the Club or for the shareholders. You would think that it would be mutually beneficial for both, but we all know the risks of a debt-free business model that is highly cash generative - you leave yourself open to a purchaser who will leverage thew Club to the hilt.

I think that suspicion may be fairly valid - but even then its almost a chicken-and-egg scenario. That is would the manager have continued on this way if not for the financial mangerment enforced upon him by the Board? No one is going to say that Arsene Wenger spent like Rafa Benitez or Jose Mourinho before 2005. But he certainly spent significantly more than Arsene Wenger after 2005 has, so I wonder if its no so much a combination of those two as the first circumstance forcing the second.

The one thing I can't see is the inevitability of a takeover. We are a private business business privately controlled by private ownership. I don;'t have a degree in finance or economice but surely no one has to seel their holdings unless they want to, no? Where not dealing with a high-finance version of eminent domain here are we? And if we aren't does that not mean that anytakeover bid's success is down to the willingness of long-term shareholders to sell out for big profits?

You're probably already aware that the Club's loan terms insist that a certain proportion of profits must be re--invested in the team year-on-year in either transfer fees or player salaries...the idea being that the Club does not divest itself of all its assets. Arsenal seem to have focussed upon giving un-proven players long-term contracts on big money. I don't see the point of this. The Club is free to do it as per the terms of the Bond, but why pay Denilson and co £30k per week, when you could buy a top drawer player and pay him top money. It might mean we win something.

I agree fully really.It strikes me that this policy is purely about saving money to increase profitablilty. If you pay a player who earns 10K 30K yesr you are wasting 20K but if the other option is to pay a player worth 100K 90K and save 10K you still in effect are losing 60K a week and three million a year.

Same applies with transfer fees pay 1 million for the first player when he is worth 100 thousnad and you waste 900 thousand. But if the second player could be gotten for 10 million even if they wanted 12 million meaning you saved two million you still lose 9 million pounds buying him.

Even more long-term. if the first players approaches their postentiall you may stll make a larger actual or percentage profit on them than on the second player when selling them. If you can sell the first player for 10 million and the second for 18 million you made one million more by buying the first player instead of the second. And even if the second could be sold for 22 million, you only made three million more tfor the extra nine million invested.

It's almost the same logic as outsourcing.Why - and I'll use a U.S. Example - pay 15 dollars an hour plus medicial benefits to assemble your product when you can build a factory in Guatemala where you pay 1 dollar an hour and no benefits to build the same product sold at the same price?

So, to summarise, I think you're right. We need to keep asking questions of the Board. The problem is that in reality we have no power to do anything. The AST is in the Club's back pocket, and any other challenges to the Board are shot down in flames or tidied under the carpet at the AGM.

One thing that shows we have power is Wenger seemingly listening to the fans and taking the Carling Cup seruously. It's a small step, but perhaps its a sign that the CLub are starting to listen to the fans again. Afterall, if a Club is not successful on the pitch, it can't be successful off of it. Eventually people will walk away and take their money with them. I think this has hit home at the Club and we can expect a serious push for trophies at last.

I agree a lot here with your initial point - the supposed voices of the supporters are too close to the club let's say to have an impact. The are a part of the Club in effect by the close realtionship to it though I don't know that to be their intent at all.

I wonder about the second part I hope you're right certainly but I'm not sure honestly.

On the manager going for it in the Carling Ciup perhaps that is so but I think we'll have a much better idea on Wednesday really. I can't help but wonder if we had drawn anybody other than s***s if we would have put as team of the same quality out there.

As to this hitting home at the club and a serious push for trophies I am not sure I can see it now as again why would you invest more money if you could fill the stadium just by scraping third or fourth without repercussions?. I agree fully with the logic and soundness of your point, I just worry since bar StanKroenke none of the people paid over 2K a share and many of them never paid a peeny even but inherited theiur shares that well there's nothing for them to lose going down these roads.

[LDB]

I voted for this year because im unbelivably fickle and we won yesterday

[Naki_Gooner]

Look guys Martin is right don't you know, because he's from the usa, the greatest country in the world, and nobody could possibly know more than him surely?










A picture's woth a thousand words, so this one is for you marty :awnker:













this has nothing to do with the board either just you!!

[REB]

usmartin

please stop ruining every thread with moans about the board, i agree with a lot you say but if you want to talk about the board then start your own thread where people can then have there thoughts in print as such, this was a thread about when do people think we will win the league again not lets blame the board for us been shite and spending no money etc , thanks