4 days to go before tranfer window close,s

[gus ceasar is a legend]

See this is how far we have slipped!

We are now debating whether Arsenal FC have to wait for confirmed Champions League status before they have the funds to go into the transfer market! Is that right? I think the mere fact we are suggesting it shows how the mighty have fallen!

I must also emphasise Augie's point on past signings as others have missed this or I expect chosen to ignore fact frankly! Wenger yes has always bought in kids or unknowns yes! The difference is he had a solid experienced team to bed them into! That is plainly not the case now!

I know there is a lot of paper talk and waffle but please study statements given by Arsenal legends leaving the club over the last couple of seasons! The direction of the club is always described in the negative! The transfer policy is questioned! Players see PV4 leave (rightly so) and replaced with Song and Flamini (wrongly so) so you can understand the frustration as a player!I'm sorry but we have fallen soq far off the pace with recruitment its untrue! We cannot keep hoping for Arsene to find the next Pele playing Namibia or somewhere!

Lastly we all accept players have a shelf life and the time will always come to say adios (usually) and wave them on their way with a thanks for what you did! I know the vast majority of you don't want to contemplate this but why can you not accept a manager has a shelf life too?

One person can only produce so many miracles and pull that many rabbits out of a hat!

Personally I think Mr Wenger's magic hat is losing its magic!

[Hagbard 23]

I know the vast majority of you don't want to contemplate this but why can you not accept a manager has a shelf life too?

One person can only produce so many miracles and pull that many rabbits out of a hat!

Personally I think Mr Wenger's magic hat is losing its magic!

Reluctantly, I have to agree with you Gus.

I have said numerous times on other threads that I think Le Prof is starting
to lose it, and that I don't like the direction he's steering us. I.E, backwards.

I will probably incur the wraith of the blinkered 'Arsene Knows ' brigade,
but I truly believe that now, (or very soon) may be the right time to start looking for his inevitable replacement.

I'm not saying 'sack him now',for all we know he may have a grand design
behind all this strange behaviour. I hope he surprises us all and makes me
eat my words.
But Arsenal Football Club is bigger than any of its employees. Including the
manager, and we have to keep moving forwards.

I'm not deriding Mr Wenger in any way, shape or form. His achievements here place him as a true legend alongside Herbert Chapman and Bertie Mee.

But as Gus stated, Everybody has a shelf life.

[gus ceasar is a legend]

I just hope it doesn't take missing out on Champions League football to highlight the point!

When Wenger suggests, as he did yesterday that Diaby can also play up front for us I do have my faith tested! Yes Swiss Phil could play up front but its not the fact he can it is what results it brings you! I could play up front but believe me you would then all forget about Song's failings as a player!

Are we now confusing whether Arsene stays because he still has our belief and faith or do we want Arsene to stay as we cannot think of a natural replacement??? The latter is a dangerous route to follow as we need to be progressive!

Will you still sing Arsene Wenger is magic in May when we come 5th or 6th?

Didnt think so!

[gunners-need-steel]

The same issues have been debated in so many threads .. rightly so because of its importance to all of us gooners .. we want our team to keep growing, and not going backwards ...

Nevertheless, as a fan, and realising that a manager is appointed to take charge of decision making and also realising that no matter how much I winge and gripe about the lack of transfer activity, I would rather throw in my support behind our proven manager and his current squad (for good or bad) .. So, I am exactly in the same position as 26may1989 ... When we actually suffer this nemesis gus/augie/hagbard (and many other long standing fans) have been warning about, then we review the situation and analyse the manager's and board's reactions and attempts to fix things ...

While like most, I am desperately hoping for some activity in the next 2 days, right now, my emphasis as a supporter is to believe in this teams ability to do well in all competitions ..throw in my support, even when they are losing ... be a little bit sparing with criticisms of our young and developing team, enjoy the ride and hope for the best ...

Whats the worst that can happen ? We have a bad season and finish with no trophies and outside even UEFA places .. and what would be the reaction of the board, AW, fans ? I am sure if that happened, there would be enough heat to ensure we overspend on players for the next season to avoid a recurrence ... so, we may need to sacrifice a season to get where a lot of you reckon we should be positioning ourselves ...

For the sake of my ticker, I am relaxed and enjoying the ride (high, low and flats) .... will leave the gnashing of teeth for some of u more experienced gnashers-of-teeth :Razz:

Its dangerous and premature to stray into the territory of seeking to replace AW .. manager replacements often cause lng period os instability in clubs unless u are a real-madrid who forks out hugely every season and is willing to change your manager every season ...

[Magic Hat]

Also Magic Hat is your surname Hill-Wood?

Curse you for blowing my cover

Ask yourself why players are not flocking here anymore and the Ribery's and Babel's of this world went elsewhere!

Did we bid for them because I don't think we did? I would imagine certain players would be reluctant given that Arsene hasn't yet got a new contract, his reputation is a far bigger draw then that of Arsenal and if they think he is going to move on in a year, they won't sign.

I don't think funds are the problem but even if we have a slim chance (very very slim) of going out at this stage, players will be wary of coming.

I must also emphasise Augie's point on past signings as others have missed this or I expect chosen to ignore fact frankly! Wenger yes has always bought in kids or unknowns yes! The difference is he had a solid experienced team to bed them into! That is plainly not the case now!

Define experienced? Jens, Gallas and Gilberto are experienced yes? Rosiciky is hardly a youth, same with Toure and Hleb.

I know there is a lot of paper talk and waffle but please study statements given by Arsenal legends leaving the club over the last couple of seasons! The direction of the club is always described in the negative! The transfer policy is questioned! Players see PV4 leave (rightly so) and replaced with Song and Flamini (wrongly so) so you can understand the frustration as a player!I'm sorry but we have fallen soq far off the pace with recruitment its untrue! We cannot keep hoping for Arsene to find the next Pele playing Namibia or somewhere!

Or Diaby if you want like for like? Or Cesc replaces him? The players that slag us off like Freddie, Ali and PV4 are the ones forced out by the club or unhappy over the 1 year contract scheme. They are bitter sadly that they were not wanted anymore.

Lastly we all accept players have a shelf life and the time will always come to say adios (usually) and wave them on their way with a thanks for what you did! I know the vast majority of you don't want to contemplate this but why can you not accept a manager has a shelf life too?

Very true however it is difficult to judge when it ends, most thought it had for Alex Ferguson but clearly that is not the case just yet. I think the new contract will be his last and we should be keeping an eye on young managers to replace him.

When Wenger suggests, as he did yesterday that Diaby can also play up front for us I do have my faith tested!

Yet not Hleb or Rosiciky? Or pointing out Vela next year or the year after in a "why we don't need" speech?

Out of curiosity, who will finish 4th or 5th for you ahead of us?

Personally, we have a very strong starting 11 and in some area's, we have a strong depth ie defence, keeper, attack and certainly cm but for me, the question is on the wings, I have little objection to our first choices going inside but if we suffer an injury spate there then we will end up with something like Diaby or Flamini on the flanks. I don't think we are going to fall from top 4 this season and think we can make a challenge with a bit of luck, maybe it is overly overoptimistic to some of you but it is called having a different view point, I respect your views but disagree with them, naturally I hope we are all wrong and that that we win the title but I hope even more so that the doomsday scenario doesn't come true.

[Hagbard 23]

Truth be told ,I don't think we will finish the season below fourth. But is fourth place really what we should be aiming for ?
Fourth place is sh*t. A couple of years ago we were unbeatable and hailed by many as the best team in Europe. All the top players were singing our praises. Even the Anti Arsenal media had to concede that we were the Dogs Bollox ! We were in a wonderful position, and if I remember rightly, it seemed like every other top class player in Europe wanted to join the Invincibles.

Whats happened since then? We reached a CL final. Sold off some Quality players, and replaced them with Potentially quality players.

We have slipped up somewhere along the way.

Arsenal FC were on the brink of becoming one of Europes massive clubs.One of the elite.

But we're not. It appears the club, and certain supporters are content with a CL spot and a futile stab at winning the title. For me this is not acceptable .
Like it or not, this club is in decline and this must be stopped.

[gunners-need-steel]

Arsenal FC were on the brink of becoming one of Europes massive clubs.One of the elite.

But we're not. It appears the club, and certain supporters are content with a CL spot and a futile stab at winning the title. For me this is not acceptable .
Like it or not, this club is in decline and this must be stopped.

Well stated Hagbard, even the most optimistic of us do realise that we have slipped .. but I put it down to a new stadium and need for financial prudence, and possibly AW's need to rebuild a core for basing a much stronger future side than what we have now.

But yes, for whatever reason and irrespective of if we finsih top4 or win any titles this season, its unacceptable for us to be in this situation for just more than this season .. even the most optimistic of us will revolt if this state of affairs doesn't end this season .. u can bet on that ...

We now have a stadium fit for the best in Europe, we have a fiundation and history to join the elite clubs in europe, and above all, WE ARE THE ARSENAL ..

[Galasso]

Did we bid for them because I don't think we did? I would imagine certain players would be reluctant given that Arsene hasn't yet got a new contract, his reputation is a far bigger draw then that of Arsenal and if they think he is going to move on in a year, they won't sign.

I don't think funds are the problem but even if we have a slim chance (very very slim) of going out at this stage, players will be wary of coming.

Ribery went to Bayern who hired Hitzfeld to take over on a relatively short term basis last season to try and steer them into Champs league - which they did not make. And at Bayern, the coach doesn't choose the players!

So Ribery wasn't wary of signing for a coach who he didn't know wanted him, didn't know how long he would be staying and playing in the UEFA cup. Therefore, I don't understand your argument (And Babel went to Liverpool without guaranteed CL football and after saying that he would one day play for Arsenal, therefore giving the impression that he DOES want to play for us.)

Yet not Hleb or Rosiciky? Or pointing out Vela next year or the year after in a "why we don't need" speech?

And in Vela lies the problem - more potential for us to develop.

The point is that we have too much potential and not enough of those, like Pires and Wiltord, who have already shown in top-class competition that they can do something. And when I say not enough, I mean if you consider the entire squad, as with injuries/numbers of games/ANC, you have to consider that each member of the first-teamsquad is going to play a role.

Personally, we have a very strong starting 11 and in some area's, we have a strong depth ie defence, keeper, attack and certainly cm...

Yes, we have a very good starting 11, but that is not the point that people are making. How many times are we going to be able to pick that starting 11. We already have Gallas out (Senderos, who still has to prove himself in the rough stuff and then who.....please, no right backs!), and Toure to the ANC. And Adebayor, if he makes your staring 11.

And attack...unproven! How can you judge that Bendtner and Eduardo give us a strong depth when they are yet to prove themselves at this level with us. They give us DEPTH by virtue of the fact that they are attackers.


The proven quality of the squad is at it's lowest for years and whilst the potential may be at it's highest for some time, this is alien to any of Arsene Wenger's previous policies. This is what is being questioned and the addition of a few world class (ot at least, proven) team players would not have hindered the developemnt of those who look like they are going to be world-class themselves.

[gus ceasar is a legend]

Magic Hat I give up frankly! I cannot debate against fantasy and not fact.

You can have your rose tinted views no problem!

I just wish I supported the same Arsenal Football Club as you!

[augie]

While it is commendable of fans to take the positive viewpoint I am puzzled by some of the following comments from gunners need steel :

"When we actually suffer this nemesis gus/augie/hagbard (and many other long standing fans) have been warning about, then we review the situation and analyse the manager's and board's reactions and attempts to fix things ... " This to me translates into do nothing and say nothing until the shit hits the fan and then we will try to reverse a situation that could and should have been fixed 12 months previously.

Whats the worst that can happen ? We have a bad season and finish with no trophies and outside even UEFA places .. and what would be the reaction of the board, AW, fans ? I am sure if that happened, there would be enough heat to ensure we overspend on players for the next season to avoid a recurrence ... so, we may need to sacrifice a season to get where a lot of you reckon we should be positioning ourselves ... Firstly we have already sacrificed 2 seasons in the league where we have finished a massive(combined) 40 odd points behind the winners so when do we draw the line and say that enough is enough ? What is the worst that can happen ?? For a start we can fail to qualify for champs lge and take a massive massive hit financially in doing so. To fail even further in not qualifying for uefa cup doesnt bear thinking about. And if either of the above happens how are we going to entice the players to join us con none of the top players will plus we will be operationg on a much much more limited bedget than what we have seen this year. It that aint enough to scare the shit out of you how about the very real possibility of losing cesc & rvp(for starters) who will undoubtidly leave to play in the champs lge for clubs that have a real chance of winning trophies - in other words clubs that are big clubs in more than just talking(unlike us).

Wenger has done a mssive job for us since he arrived but nobody and I mean nobody should be beyond reproach and his decision making of late has more than me asking serious questions about the great man. I am not suggesting yet that his time is up but I am reminded of an article in last seasons Gooner where it told of his last season at monaco wenger went on a personal crusade to build a successful team with young players, finished 9th & was sacked and he is going down a dangerous deja vu route and nobody wants that for him. I will always argue that in a lot of ways what george graham did was every bit as good in that he took a club that were only considered big by history and hadnt won anything in 18 years and turned them into a very successful club again albeit without the great football. Nobody aregued in his latter days that he was untouchable and I feel the same standards should be applied here.

We all want & hope that wenger and the team will succeed here & but the difference here is the lack of a reality check on some fans. I always hope that one day I will win the lottery but deep down I know the chances of it happening are tiny - about the same chance as this squad being successful anytime soon really and it pains me to say that but I know it is the truth.

[Magic Hat]

Did we play badly in most games last season or we did dominate and dominate again but fail to score? See the first season of 4th place was worrying because a late surge aside, we didn't play that well in England, we seemed fine in Europe but that isn't much help when playing Blackburn. Last season, we drew or lost games we should have won by a decent margin until after that horrible week where we seemed to lose our motivation as we had little to play for. It depends how we perform this season as to what I say at the end, if we did finish 6th then yeah, Arsene would have to go but that is like saying If England goes bankrupt this year, Darling must be sacked", the situation isn't going to arise.

Is Arsene untouchable? No, he needs to work on the defence some more, he needs to figure out why we still are not taking our chances, his subs could be better, he should have talked to Gilberto about the captaincy issue and I would still like a winger however we were far from abject last season in terms of play so I don't think he has lost it.

Ribery went to Bayern who hired Hitzfeld to take over on a relatively short term basis last season to try and steer them into Champs league - which they did not make. And at Bayern, the coach doesn't choose the players!

So Ribery wasn't wary of signing for a coach who he didn't know wanted him, didn't know how long he would be staying and playing in the UEFA cup. Therefore, I don't understand your argument (And Babel went to Liverpool without guaranteed CL football and after saying that he would one day play for Arsenal, therefore giving the impression that he DOES want to play for us.)

so we bid for either of them? Babel wanted to play for us yet didn't come here, maybe due to us not bidding for him?

The point is that we have too much potential and not enough of those, like Pires and Wiltord, who have already shown in top-class competition that they can do something. And when I say not enough, I mean if you consider the entire squad, as with injuries/numbers of games/ANC, you have to consider that each member of the first-teamsquad is going to play a role.

Outside the first 11? Not world beaters but our defending players are very solid, the sometimes erratic Senderos aside but outside it, only Silva and Flamini have really been doing things outside the club as yet.

And attack...unproven! How can you judge that Bendtner and Eduardo give us a strong depth when they are yet to prove themselves at this level with us. They give us DEPTH by virtue of the fact that they are attackers.

Dudu could flop, true, but think it is unlikly, I have faith in him to do well this season and the big Dane has done all right when he has played, he also offers a plan B. We have a work horse, a star, a scorer and a target man, a nice set of options and can always go to 4-4-1-1.

This is what is being questioned and the addition of a few world class (ot at least, proven) team players would not have hindered the developemnt of those who look like they are going to be world-class themselves.

Jens, Gallas, Toure, Rosiciky, Hleb, Gilberto are not enough? 6 experienced first teamers

[Galasso]

Magic Hat

This is what you said and what I replied to:

...I would imagine certain players would be reluctant given that Arsene hasn't yet got a new contract, his reputation is a far bigger draw then that of Arsenal and if they think he is going to move on in a year, they won't sign.

I don't think funds are the problem but even if we have a slim chance (very very slim) of going out at this stage, players will be wary of coming.

Do you want me to make the same points again. I have no idea, as you say, whether we bid for them. But this is not the jist of your reasoning. I was arguing against the points above. You only came back about the bidding situation, which I didn't mention. The gist of my post was that we should have bid for these players - you argued why they might not come.

Dudu could flop, true, but think it is unlikly, I have faith in him to do well this season and the big Dane has done all right when he has played, he also offers a plan B. We have a work horse, a star, a scorer and a target man, a nice set of options and can always go to 4-4-1-1.

I assume that the scorer you mean is Eduardo? Not proven at our level - and he's the only one you mention as a scorer. A star - RVP Maybe, but what has being a star got to with anything? You list their qualities like a resume.

Strength in depth is regular, to be relied upon, scoring goals at our (top) level. Thus, unproven (over a full season)

Jens, Gallas, Toure, Rosiciky, Hleb, Gilberto are not enough? 6 experienced first teamers

When did I bring up experience in this, which is what the above refers to:

This is what is being questioned and the addition of a few world class (ot at least, proven) team players would not have hindered the developemnt of those who look like they are going to be world-class themselves

It is the subject of QUALITY additions to the first team squad.

For me Ribery is near the stage that Pires was, probably earlier in his career, when he left Marseille.


It looks to me like you didn't read my post or chose to select items from it and reply to something completely different. I argued directly against what you said to those elements I disagreed with (I agree with some of what you have to say). I would appreciate you extending to me the same courtesy. Thanks.

[Magic Hat]

I misunderstood you for which I apologise. I think I should just say at this point that I'm not a fan of Ribbery, not for 17 million at any rate, he would have been a good add for the right price. Then again, I fail to see why people are fans of Nathan Porriott so my judgement of players isn't up to much.

In regards the two transfers, I honestly think Babel was desperate to move to a big league, Liverpool were splashing out and are always "going to be fighting for the title this year" every single year and since we didn't go for him, or didn't agree the price, he went to Liverpool. Bayern Munich are giants, no matter who manages them, and if they fail to get to the CL this time round, there will be shock waves around the world, they are spending big to become a huge force, Riberry may well be excited by that opportunity, plus correct me if I'm wrong, the board or Director who chooses the players has been there awhile? Or he wanted to leave were only ones willing to pay that much but that would be a surprise.

Bayern and Liverpool are huge clubs, lots of visible cash, we are not quite on the historical club level that they are so our big attractions are CL, location and Arsene. Two in doubt (though the first one being in doubt is a bit odd) out of 3, players may be more reluctant to come.

In terms of our attack: I used star for RVP in the oversimplified system as wasn't sure what else to do, he can do something special with the ball and will hopefully get a lot of goals, injury permitting. I'll accept that none of our strikers have proved themselves in the Prem has regular scorers and I understand your concerns but with respect, I have faith in them, perhaps blindly so.

With your class questions, I think 5 out of the 6 are very good to world class with the other good but not adapted. However I suspect we will never agree on that.

Once again, sorry for my last post.

[Galasso]

I think it was a bit sore off me to go off like that so thanks but I think I should say sorry for being an arse!

Ribery's motives in signing for Bayern could be anything. Bayern are a huge club, and their big spending thus pre-season has been unusual for them. They reacted to last years disappointments in a big way. And while the General Manager has been there for some time, the player's most important relationship for success while he is playing is with the coach, therefore it is a comparison between Hitzfeld and Wenger. And Hitzfeld was only brought in during last season as a short term measure and it is unclear of his long term future.

I am sure Bayern will qualify next season, but we are not on a different plane to Liverpool or Bayern now, and are very well known and respected as a top club in Europe and worldwide.

Babel - I am sure that was nothing more than Wenger didn't rate him at the price he eventually went for. Liverpool did and got him. Simple as that. I don't think he was worth that much money if it is purely on a value-basis.

And while I agree that we do have class players at the club, I don't believe that we have the very highest class players and that the line on the graph goes down too steeply between those players you mentioned and some squad players.

The squad seems too thin for me, in personnel and quality, for a long, ANC / injury interrupted season. I pray that your right with regards to the front men.

[Magic Hat]

Don't worry about it, I know how annoying it can be when someone either has the strong end of the stick in a debate or is being a jerk, been fun debating with you but for let us agree to disagree?