Mikel Arteta, success or failure? - Merged thread.

[SteveO 35]

I made the very point that SteveO is making about the DNA of the club quite a few months ago. It hasn’t been any different for my entire lifetime and as I said before, my dad who died a couple of years ago at age 99 (so had plenty of time to witness it), would always say that the club had always been tight fisted regarding transfers. He would relate the story of us trying to sign Danny Blanchflower from Villa for a whole summer and the manager had to keep going back to the board to ask for more money. At the eleventh hour spurs walked up and paid the asking price and he was the captain that led them to the double.

We never seem to buy top players who are at the top of their game (Alan Ball was an exception, but sadly joined a team in decline) and I think most of us would say that Dennis was the best player we’ve ever signed, but even he was in a trough at Inter and was therefore relatively cheap….same goes for Henry. We normally buy prospects, many of whom go on to be cracking players, but there’s a great many who don’t and bring youngsters through. Most players we sign are upper second tier at best and we frequently over pay for them. To be honest, I’ve always thought that the very top players wont join us because we don’t compete at the top level.

The top clubs throughout Europe buy the proven best. I’m afraid we don’t have a top club mindset and in European teams, we also come up short against the second tier clubs.

Hate to say it, but we need a new manager and a fresh start, because Arteta peaked last season and won’t come back from the point we’ve now sunk to. I’m also wondering whether the players have stopped believing in Arteta and “the process”.

Previously I didn’t think that the Kroenke’s would be prepared to bankroll the transfers and wages required, but now I’m not so sure, because they’ve definitely indulged Legohead. Fuck knows.

Just re-read this. I'm afraid it was a bit of a ramble, a stream of consciousness....or something like that.

I'm just seriously pissed off. Don't think I can face the whole Wenger managed decline shit again.

Everything you’ve written confirms the historical lack of aggression and ambition at board level. The current owners are simply continuing this tradition, so I don’t know how you can turn around and call for Arteta’s head. He made an SOS call in January which fell on depth ears. This is not to say Arteta is blameless but it would take a superhuman effort from the most experienced of managers to drag this lot anywhere near close to the title without significant reinforcements.

The thing none of us know for sure is what happened and who is to blame for the January debacle? If, as you suggest, Arteta did make an SOS call and went to the board with specific targets that weren't realised for whatever reason, then for sure Wiggy and Son need to cop a lot of flak. However, when they did provide funds back in the Summer, one has to question why Merino and Calafiori were prioritised as signings......so it looks to me like there is a collective failure here. The loan signings of Neto and Sterling were nothing short of farcical too and meant that by January we didn't even have a loan option available to us, so even if the likes of Rashford were a potential solution, that door was closed by the total ineffectiveness of the previous window's signings.

I don't think Arteta is solely to blame here, any more than I did with Wenger. If we want to bring Emery into the picture too then its very clear he was neither given the time or resources to even have half a chance of success, so this history of failing to achive progress is etched in our history through the decades. What were the real reasons for Edu moving on, when it seemed he was part of something that was moving in the right direction? Was it a pure money call, or did he see some sort of lack of ambition as a reason?

It strikes me that the only 2 managers who have raged against the machine successfully in the past 50 years were Wenger and Graham, and even then both of their reigns end badly. Fiszman and Dein were both cited as integral to the success of the club in that period, neither of whom are here now. Were those 2 both head and shoulders above the other managers that have walked through the club over those decades or did they have better support from above at the time? Is it any coincidence that Wenger never hit the same heights of his early days once Dein was gone? Interesting to hear people's views here. I was only a 9 year old lad when Brady left so my memories get better from the mid 80s onwards from my teen years upwards

[augie]

It doesnt take a superhuman effort to recognise that fat sterling was never going to be a good signing - ffs even stevie wonder could see that. We loaned out nelson and replaced him with an overweight chubby c.unt whose best days are long gone - even if we want to be super nice and say that we had no money to bring in a winger, then why get rid of nelson and replace him with a guy on a bigger weekly wedge than nelson is (and I know that we are not paying all of streling's wages, but I'll bet we are paying him more than we were paying nelson )

As well as that, IF a lack of resources was going to affect our transfer kitty last summer, then it doesnt take einstein to figure out that you use the funds available on your biggest priority positions - we signed a left back when we already had two, and we signed a defensive midfielder when we had a few of them already too. Reality is that we didnt avoid buying a striker due to a lack of funds - we refused to buy one cos the cone boy believes/believed absolutely in jesus and havertz and thousands of mong fans backed him in that despite every bit of evidence available showing that he was making a mistake

As poor as his transfer incomings have been overall (as in value for money), what really has annoyed me for years is how little chances he gave some of those signings before ruthlessly disposing of them, and how he treated some homegrown players too. Revisionism is a big issue with modern day fans and how they remember things change when things go in a different direction - everyone now is rightfully acclaiming the impact Nwanieri has had, but how many were agreeing with me a few months ago when I was critical about the lack of game time he was getting ?? It took an injury crisis for the kid to get a proper run in the team, and now legohead is being hailed as a genius when the reality is that he was being held back by that some dickhead who was preferring to pick older experienced players despite the fact that they were out of form Again those same knucklehead fans look at our captain as a superstar because he was bought from real madrid, but the reality is that one of our own (Smith-Rowe) has had more goals and assists in the league this season in a weaker fulham team Let me remind people that ceballos was signed from madrid too and he was dogshit, so where the player comes from should not be a factor when judging a player, and its funny cos for all the young midfielders madrid have signed in recent seasons (camavinga, valverde, bellingham, tchouameni, ceballos, guler and odeargod), only one has been bombed out the door and deemed as not good enough, and of course that is the one we bought

[Retro Gunner]

I made the very point that SteveO is making about the DNA of the club quite a few months ago. It hasn’t been any different for my entire lifetime and as I said before, my dad who died a couple of years ago at age 99 (so had plenty of time to witness it), would always say that the club had always been tight fisted regarding transfers. He would relate the story of us trying to sign Danny Blanchflower from Villa for a whole summer and the manager had to keep going back to the board to ask for more money. At the eleventh hour spurs walked up and paid the asking price and he was the captain that led them to the double.

We never seem to buy top players who are at the top of their game (Alan Ball was an exception, but sadly joined a team in decline) and I think most of us would say that Dennis was the best player we’ve ever signed, but even he was in a trough at Inter and was therefore relatively cheap….same goes for Henry. We normally buy prospects, many of whom go on to be cracking players, but there’s a great many who don’t and bring youngsters through. Most players we sign are upper second tier at best and we frequently over pay for them. To be honest, I’ve always thought that the very top players wont join us because we don’t compete at the top level.

The top clubs throughout Europe buy the proven best. I’m afraid we don’t have a top club mindset and in European teams, we also come up short against the second tier clubs.

Hate to say it, but we need a new manager and a fresh start, because Arteta peaked last season and won’t come back from the point we’ve now sunk to. I’m also wondering whether the players have stopped believing in Arteta and “the process”.

Previously I didn’t think that the Kroenke’s would be prepared to bankroll the transfers and wages required, but now I’m not so sure, because they’ve definitely indulged Legohead. Fuck knows.

Just re-read this. I'm afraid it was a bit of a ramble, a stream of consciousness....or something like that.

I'm just seriously pissed off. Don't think I can face the whole Wenger managed decline shit again.

Everything you’ve written confirms the historical lack of aggression and ambition at board level. The current owners are simply continuing this tradition, so I don’t know how you can turn around and call for Arteta’s head. He made an SOS call in January which fell on depth ears. This is not to say Arteta is blameless but it would take a superhuman effort from the most experienced of managers to drag this lot anywhere near close to the title without significant reinforcements.

I've been as anti Kroenke as anyone, but as I said in my post, it would be foolish to blame them for the current state of the squad, regardless of injuries, because they didn't build it. They have supported Arteta handsomely and he's assembled an unbalanced squad of average Joe's, bums, misfits and cast-offs from the teams we're supposed to be competing with. There's a couple of jewels (which as augie often points out, he didn't sign) and a couple of very promising youngsters. Who stands out from his signings? I'd say Gabriel and possibly Raya. While I'm happy enough to have Rice at the club, he was not a £100+ million player in my opinion and certainly hasn't been playing like one.

The vanity projects of Havertz and Jesus are inexcusable and his refusal to sign a proper CF was always going to be his undoing. It's not as if the whole world couldn't see it, so he has nowhere to hide.

I'm calling for him to go, because I know how this ends up. We peaked last season and it doesn't materially improve from where we are. We may go through periods were we flatter to deceive, just as we did with Wenger every now and then, but it will always end in failure. Keeping Arteta is only postponing the inevitable, because he'll be gone eventually having failed to win any big prizes, or anything at all in all likelihood, so it will be more Wengeresque wasted seasons of nothingness. Personally, I'm not up for repeating that mind numbing pain. Better to pull the trigger at the end of the season and try to find a manger to take us forward. There's no guarantees with any new appointment, but I'll guarantee you that we've seen the best of the novice who should never had been given the job.

Oh and when a manger is insistent on listing Charity Shields as trophies and starts giving desperate Wenger speak interviews, then it's clear the game is up.

[Sid33]

As I've said before, he has successfully turned us from the laughing stock of the plge into a team that has finished a close second for the last 2 seasons.
Lots on here forget the humiliating 4,5,6 goal thrashings 4 or 5 times a season.
Wenker kicking and throwing water bottles much to the amusement of opposing fans and the media.
I might be wrong but I don't think we've lost more than a couple of games against the top sides in the last few seasons.
Despite being second in the league this season however, the truth is our title hopes were gone after the first 5 or 6 games.
And we haven't recovered and the remainder of the season will see a further decline.
So please go at the end of the season, or please Josh, sack him.

[TeeCee]

I wonder if it was Edu who brought in Sterling? Was he still here then? Would explain why he did a runner!!

Over the last 15 games before Wet Spam, we matched Liverpool, 10 wins, 5 draws, same goal difference! Funny isn't it, cause it feels like we have been dogshit whilst Liverpool have smashed everyone, yet we've done the same. Puts it into perspective a bit and just rams home what signing a striker could have done in Jan...... Probably for 10m more we would have got Watkins.......... Oh well!!

[SteveO 35]

I wonder if it was Edu who brought in Sterling? Was he still here then? Would explain why he did a runner!!

Over the last 15 games before Wet Spam, we matched Liverpool, 10 wins, 5 draws, same goal difference! Funny isn't it, cause it feels like we have been dogshit whilst Liverpool have smashed everyone, yet we've done the same. Puts it into perspective a bit and just rams home what signing a striker could have done in Jan...... Probably for 10m more we would have got Watkins.......... Oh well!!

The issue is that none of us really know sadly. I would imagine that Arteta had fond recollections of the Sterling at Man City and hoped that he could rekindle that form. I think Sterling and Arteta are both on record of having felt their time together at Man City coincided with his best form, so I doubt that one is on Edu, but his leaving the club when he did raises a lot of questions for me. Would you really leave Arsenal for Forest for career ambition reasons....especially when you've just missed out on the title and at a club that is now reaffirmed back in the Champions League? Was it purely money? Or, did Edu see what was coming down the line in terms of future lack of investment/ambition? As someone who also had an affinity with the club from his playing days, the departure is even more baffling.

We did a little check on here at the start of the season to see what the verdict was on Arteta's €800m of signings. I was still of the view that there more hits than misses but we also had a number in the balance such as Merino and Calafiori as we'd only just got them, and the odd one like Timber where the verdict was still in the balance owing to his lengthy injury

Would be good to see how people see that equation now between the hits and the misses - probably a lot more even I would say. Whether that's an Arteta or Edu problem....god only knows !

[mcdowell42]

Remember at the time when Edu was leaving ,there were some rumours that he thought Arteta was getting too powerful at the club and he decided he couldn't work like that, but like I say it was only rumours

[Sid33]

Remember at the time when Edu was leaving ,there were some rumours that he thought Arteta was getting too powerful at the club and he decided he couldn't work like that, but like I say it was only rumours

There were also rumours that Edu was against signing a striker and that their working relationship had become untenable

[the playing mantis]

Seems obvious edu left due to power arteta now has. Like his lord and master and that ended well .

Much more time for edu than this clown far better player and actual success, nit a average panic buy that was epitome of the level Wenger had taken us to a steady ok ish player who was considered a decent signing as we had fallen so far.

Edu was a winner. Arteta never had been.

And this is not saying he's blameless but as others have said you simply wouldn't leave mid season for notts forest and their shitty sister clubs from a title and champions league ambitions club, not mid season. Regardless of money. Power politics must have been at play.

How can people think he may be behind sterling. It's obvious who was behind that given the history.

[augie]

Seems obvious edu left due to power arteta now has. Like his lord and master and that ended well .

Much more time for edu than this clown far better player and actual success, nit a average panic buy that was epitome of the level Wenger had taken us to a steady ok ish player who was considered a decent signing as we had fallen so far.

Edu was a winner. Arteta never had been.

And this is not saying he's blameless but as others have said you simply wouldn't leave mid season for notts forest and their shitty sister clubs from a title and champions league ambitions club, not mid season. Regardless of money. Power politics must have been at play.

How can people think he may be behind sterling. It's obvious who was behind that given the history.

Absolutely - they spoke about it openly at the time ffs, but it seems now that edu has gone, he will be the convenient fall guy for those still defending the cone boy Like I have said for a long time, edu is far from blameless in our shite transfer dealings, BUT there are signings which can clearly be linked to the cone boy (jesus, zinchenko and sterling for starters), and trying to deflect the blame is as cringy as trying to claim the charity shield as a proper trophy

[OneBardGooner]

It's all about perspectives & perceptions isn't it.

We might say that the Charity Shield isn't a Trophy, yet I'm sure the Majority of teams in the Prem would Love to Win it AND Claim it as a Trophy. #justsaying

[Perryashburtongroves]

Nothing left to say that hasn't been said already. Get him out at the end of the season because it's over for him. Players have seen through his shit and it's only going to go one way now. Absolute fucking joke now.

[SteveO 35]

He's done the same baffling thing Wenger did in changing the team's style of play to be over technical and strangled every breath of life out of it. Joyless football

The Wenger team of 1998 was so amazing to watch. Physical beasts, blistering pace throughout- remember how they use to time our goals in seconds from our own keeper to the goal itself. Loved watching it. To think years later we became a boring, slow, over technical tip tap shit was unfathomable

Similarly the football Arteta had us playing a couple of seasons ago was so good to watch. It didn't need major surgery, it needed a sprinkling of quality in a couple of key positions. Like Wenker himself his answer has been to turn something almost great into turgid, slow paced, borefest football

I actually hate watching this team as much as did the last 8 years of Wenger's bores

[Perryashburtongroves]

He's done the same baffling thing Wenger did in changing the team's style of play to be over technical and strangled every breath of life out of it. Joyless football

The Wenger team of 1998 was so amazing to watch. Physical beasts, blistering pace throughout- remember how they use to time our goals in seconds from our own keeper to the goal itself. Loved watching it. To think years later we became a boring, slow, over technical tip tap shit was unfathomable

Similarly the football Arteta had us playing a couple of seasons ago was so good to watch. It didn't need major surgery, it needed a sprinkling of quality in a couple of key positions. Like Wenker himself his answer has been to turn something almost great into turgid, slow paced, borefest football

I actually hate watching this team as much as did the last 8 years of Wenger's bores

I thought that tonight. I haven't been this disinterested since Wanker was vandalising the entire club. Even under Emery it was interesting because it was something different after a decade of decline and predictability. The sad thing is that we're heading right back to the 2008-14 stage where the failure to do anything in the transfer market means we'll never really compete and will just keep slipping further and further behind. There's no excuses left for this twat now. He refused to get the players in that we needed, he's had money to spend but wasted it on dross and now he's not a good enough manager to find a way out of it. It's over now, just end it all the moment PSV or one of those Madrid clubs stroll past us without really needing to do too much.

[DB10GOONER]

He has now completed his transmogrification and gone full mk II.

He is now the living embodiment of latter era Arsene Wenger.

And I guaranfuckingtee you we have at least one, maybe three, years of this egotistical fucking little spacker still ahead of us, because despite the fact that Wiggy Raccoon Head gave him 800 million to piss up the wall, the Kroenke's will fail as owners and leaders exactly where they failed with mk I - not knowing when, nor having the balls, to sack the fucking failing manager!

As much as I blame the Kroenke's for not sacking this geebag, that does not exclude the geebag from my wrath.

He took a decent team that needed really only a couple of top signings two years ago, and he turned them into Wengerball 2.0 in a third of the time it took mk I to turn one of the best teams in the history of the game into a pack of inward gazing weak little piss boys that played tippy tappy to repeatedly struggle to a one nil defeat or - God alordy above speakah onah tha mountainah - a magnificent nil all draw against the likes of Lying Phil Brown's fucking turgid Hull City side.

I look at Ohdeargod and I see Circle Dribbler Hleb in his pomp with ten touches, a sashay to the right, a swoop to the left, another five touches, a nice little spin in a circle for effect..... and a pass ten yards back to the CH. Over and over again.

I look at ENGLISH fucking Deckers (you are welcome to him SteveO mate! ) and I see Arteta himself, a "solid" enough player on his day, but never a game changer, never the midfield general that goes and grabs you a win like Paddy or the chav rat Fabregas did in their peak days.

I look at Fateem Girling and I see.... well, I just see a girlfriend bashing fat useless little cùnt stealing a living tbh.

No point going through them all. You get the picture.

But possibly worst of all (in a PTSD flashback kind of way), the delusional little Lego piece is now talking utter convoluted horseshit all the time - just like Wenger did.

Speaking of delusional cùnts, where's that walking talking head injury Mad Marty Wilson 2.fuckingO?