The Gooner Forum

DB10GOONER wrote:
And the fact they are all called wanky names like Ronan, Lorcan, Fin and Julie-Ann pisses me off too!! Southsider tossers!!

Jaysus you just named my entire family

northbankbren wrote:

DB10GOONER wrote:
And the fact they are all called wanky names like Ronan, Lorcan, Fin and Julie-Ann pisses me off too!! Southsider tossers!!

Jaysus you just named my entire family

Sorry, bren!

daniel quote

Cheap claims with no backing. Do you really know what happened, after throwing such claims in the air? Can you tell me what Israel has done so wrong yesterday




daniel you started this thread to defend your country which is fair enough but i dont think a thread would have been started on this by anyone else as these threads tend to get a bit ott and as i said earlier people have there own views on Palestine and are hardly going to change there views because of your couple of biased you tube vids,

what did israel do wrong yesterday you ask and i will keep this short because its plain to see you see nothing wrong but israeli commandos boarded a ship in international waters carrying aid by boat and helicopter, now that must have been scary for the people on board, maybe a few attempted to get at the Israeli commandos but the commandos are highly trained professionals and took out handguns and killed people.
and you still see nothing wrong in that

REBEL GOONER wrote:

DB10GOONER wrote:
Britain could be seen to have played Isreal's role as the invader and certain groups in Ireland the palestinian role as the self-viewed freedom fighters (groups that were viewed EXACTLY the same way by the British and Irish governments as the Palestinians are by Isreal).

just how can you compare the two we both grew up with the british army in the north but for the life of me i cant ever remember the british army bombing schools,shooting innocent woman and children, planes dropping bombs and not caring where or who they hurt, bombing republican parts of belfast ,derry etc and not remember ever a humanitarian blockade stopping medical supplies going across the border .

Rebel,

I know your views on this from previous posts and I always find them very hard to understand, honestly I really do.

Find me one single episode of the Israeli Army bombing a school? If you are talking about the one in Gaza at the end of 2008, there was no such incident. Even the UN admit that. The missiles were outside the school, aimed at a Hamas mortar crew. Three people in the school were injured, the school's GPS co-ordinates had been given to the Israelis by the UN so it was not targeted.
The whole incident was fabricated by the Hamas, the injured and dead people were from outside the school, and the UN had to retract their knee jerk statement that the school had been hit.

Innocent women and children have of course been killed in the conflicts, but not intentionally, and the Israeli army has often stopped missions because a civilian has got in the way of the cross hairs.

If it is school massacres you want to read about, try the Ma'alot massacre of 1974.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma%27alot_massacre

DB10.

I understand that some people try to compare the Northern Irish situation with the Middle East, but for me it is far from like for like and does not bare comparison on a lot of issues.

People do try to align say Israel is liek the British were in Ireland, and you now have the innapppropriate use of the Israeli flag by both the English Defence League, and the Glasgow Rangers Firm who want to promote their predjudices.

If anything, Israeli is a tiny country, of Jews returning to spiritual homeland after 2000 year exile, surrounded by Muslim countries trying to wipe it out.
Hell bent on Arab imperialism, and Arab/Muslim empire from Mauritania in the West to Pakistan in the East. Tiny Israeli winds them up, stuck in the middle of the great "Islamic Empire".


And Flash, am I not allowed to speak on this because YOU say so?

If you have some sort of personal dislike of me then so be it, but at least look at what I post and answer point rationaly instead of pre dismissing what I write based on some sort of personal antipathy.


GoonerSid.

You posts just prove that all this "I am anti-Israeli but not anti-Semitic" rhetoric that ones hears is all cobblers. You talk about American "Semitic Money". Very clear where you are coming from. At least you do not try to hide it, but you prejudice is now very clear.
People say there is no racism on here and that is so ridiculous when I read posts like yours!



If anyone British is so quick to lambast Israel for this, they should have a little look again at the incident surrounding the sinking of the Belgrano, a ship outside the Falklands exclusion zone.

From Wikipedia:

"However, exclusion zones are historically declared for the benefit of neutral vessels; during war, under international law, the heading and location of a belligerent naval vessel has no bearing on its status. In addition, the captain of the Belgrano, Hector Bonzo, has testified that the attack was legitimate (as did the Argentine government in 1994)."

QuartzGooner wrote:

REBEL GOONER wrote:

DB10GOONER wrote:
Britain could be seen to have played Isreal's role as the invader and certain groups in Ireland the palestinian role as the self-viewed freedom fighters (groups that were viewed EXACTLY the same way by the British and Irish governments as the Palestinians are by Isreal).

just how can you compare the two we both grew up with the british army in the north but for the life of me i cant ever remember the british army bombing schools,shooting innocent woman and children, planes dropping bombs and not caring where or who they hurt, bombing republican parts of belfast ,derry etc and not remember ever a humanitarian blockade stopping medical supplies going across the border .

Rebel,

I know your views on this from previous posts and I always find them very hard to understand, honestly I really do.

Find me one single episode of the Israeli Army bombing a school? If you are talking about the one in Gaza at the end of 2008, there was no such incident. Even the UN admit that. The missiles were outside the school, aimed at a Hamas mortar crew. Three people in the school were injured, the school's GPS co-ordinates had been given to the Israelis by the UN so it was not targeted.
The whole incident was fabricated by the Hamas, the injured and dead people were from outside the school, and the UN had to retract their knee jerk statement that the school had been hit.

Innocent women and children have of course been killed in the conflicts, but not intentionally, and the Israeli army has often stopped missions because a civilian has got in the way of the cross hairs.

If it is school massacres you want to read about, try the Ma'alot massacre of 1974.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma%27alot_massacre

DB10, I understand how some people try to compare the Northern Irish situation with the Middle East, but it is far from like for like and does not bare comparison.

If anything, Israeli is a tiny country, of Jews returning to spiritual homeland after 2000 year exile, surrounded by Muslim countries trying to wipe it out.
Hell bent on Arab imperialism, and Arab/Muslim empire from Mauritania in the West to Pakistan in the East. Tiny Israeli winds them up, stuck in the middle of the great "Empire".

And Flash, am I not allowed to speak on this because YOU say so?
I was not aware you had some sort of authority over me?
If you have some sort of personal dislike of me then so be it, but at least look at what I post and answer point rationaly instead of pre dismissing what I write based on some sort of personal antipathy.

GoonerSid.
You posts just prove that all this "I am anti-Israeli but not anti-Semitic" rhetoric that ones hears is all cobblers. You talk about American "Semitic Money". Very clear where you are coming from. At least you do not try to hide it, but you prejudice is now very clear.
Peopel say there is no racism on here and that is so ridiculous when I read posts like yours!
Quartz, I can assure you I have no feelings either way towards Semitism, as I am an aetheist and hold no religious views.
What I do have an issue with is that Semitic money, and indeed the need of any US administration, not too get on the wrong side of the huge Semitic vote in the states, this has allowed Israel to persecute the palestinian people, without fear of intervention, from the self-proclaimed keepers of world peace, ie the US.

goonersid wrote: Quartz, I can assure you I have no feelings either way towards Semitism, as I am an aetheist and hold no religious views.
What I do have an issue with is that Semitic money, and indeed the need of any US administration, not too get on the wrong side of the huge Semitic vote in the states, this has allowed Israel to persecute the palestinian people, without fear of intervention, from the self-proclaimed keepers of world peace, ie the US.

But saying what you did reads same as the rhetoric from international anti-Semitic agencies, an age old libel of monied Jews trying to rule the world. If you are athiest please be ware of what you have written and how it reads.

The Jewish vote in the US is of course one to be taken into consideration, but so is the growing Muslim and Arab and growing Palestinian vote there.
So is the delicate international need for the USA to rely on Arab oil.

The very notion of "Persecution of the Palestinian People" is one I have a problem with.

It seems to be some sort of belief that Israeli persecute Palestinians, that is just part of what being Israeli is.

But it is so much more involved.

24% of the Israeli population is Arab, ethnically the same as Palestinians.

They have freedom of movement, freedom to vote, same rights as any Jewish Israeli.

The Palestinian population is spread into Jordan and Lebanon and Syria.
They have a terrible time in Lebanon and Syria, living in squalor, in camps.

The Palestinians under Israeli juridisction in the West Bank certainly have travel restrictions. But it is because there is armed conflict, and security needs dominate.

The West Bank Palestinians are actually doing well now economically, Ramallah is thriving, they are not living in squalor. Tony Blair has put in good work, and the economic basis and civil infrastructure of a Palestinian state is well under way there.

The tragedy is that their leaders in the past have pulled away from any attempt to make that state official and to give the region a chance of peace.

There is plenty of land available if only the countries in the region would see sense and set up a Palestinian state in the coastal area of fertile land in North Saudi Arabia/South Jordan, with financial and technological investment from Israel, the Arab Oil economies and the USA. It could be done inside 10 years.

It would stop the fighting over the West Bank.

But it does not suit Israeli's enemies.

Rebel,

I know your views on this from previous posts and I always find them very hard to understand, honestly I really do.








whats hard to understand quartz,
the fact i dont like to see innocent people killed and that includes Israelis. i am not pro hamas nor am i anti semitic but i am against what the israeli defence forces are doing in Palestine part of this comes from having family killed by by the israeli backed south lebanese army in Lebanon
but back to the present and
the facts on this matter is highly trained israeli commandos boarded a ship in international waters and killed civilians, HIGHLY TRAINED COMMANDOS ffs against a few protesters, that is morally wrong and israel should be brought to justice for there atrocities. but then when did they ever give a shit about what other countries think of them and will continue do what ever they feel fit no matter how wrong or unjust they are.


my last post ever on this matter as this is an arsenal forum and should be kept that way.

REBEL GOONER wrote:Rebel,

I know your views on this from previous posts and I always find them very hard to understand, honestly I really do.








whats hard to understand quartz,
the fact i dont like to see innocent people killed and that includes Israelis. i am not pro hamas nor am i anti semitic but i am against what the israeli defence forces are doing in Palestine part of this comes from having family killed by by the israeli backed south lebanese army in Lebanon
but back to the present and
the facts on this matter is highly trained israeli commandos boarded a ship in international waters and killed civilians, HIGHLY TRAINED COMMANDOS ffs against a few protesters, that is morally wrong and israel should be brought to justice for there atrocities. but then when did they ever give a shit about what other countries think of them and will continue do what ever they feel fit no matter how wrong or unjust they are.


my last post ever on this matter as this is an arsenal forum and should be kept that way.

Well I am sorry that you have had family killed in this conflict, and so have I, and I would guess that DanielD has too and of course it colours people's views.

I doubt we would agree but my whole view questions what exactly is "Palestine" anyway, and when and how that national identity arose.

The commandos boarded five ships previous to the one there was trouble on.
There was no problem. The ships were escorted to Ashdod, the major port in South Israel, and the goods sent on to Gaza.

Any country will inspect ships coming into it's waters if it feels there is suspiscion of smuggling or illegal activity.

That is why Commandos went on board.

The people on the ship would have known that the five other ships had peaceably gone to the port, as the ships were all in radio contact with each other.

The crew decided to fight the commandos.

The commandos were holding non lethal crowd control weapons, and they boarded one by one from a rope, not en masse from the side using stun grenades or assault tactics.

The boarding was visible, and the ships crew were told in advance.

It was their idiocy to fight the commandos.

the facts on this matter is highly trained israeli commandos boarded a ship in international waters and killed civilians, HIGHLY TRAINED COMMANDOS ffs against a few protesters, that is morally wrong and israel should be brought to justice for there atrocities. but then when did they ever give a shit about what other countries think of them and will continue do what ever they feel fit no matter how wrong or unjust they are.

As I said (and seem to be ignored), the soldiers only boarded the ships in international borders, becuase if they would do it in Gaza's waters the Hamas would have gotten involved too, leading to more casualties for both sides.

You say "highly trained commandos against a few protestors", there were 7 commandos soldiers armed with paint guns, and there were in the region of 100 protestors attacking them with metal bars, knives and axes.

There should've been 7 more dropping down to help the other soldiers, but the peace activists tied down the cable for the soldiers to go down from to the ship trying to crash the plain. What moral people are they, these peace loving protestors, ah?

Now, let me make it clear. I do accept that the actions taken by the IDF may have been wrong, and if they could have stopped the ships without making physical contact with them, it would be for the best, but the IDF, naivly, really planned to board a ship of peace protestors, definetly not an angry mob with metal bars. The soldiers felt their lives were in danger and that's when they drew the weapons.

DanielD wrote:

the facts on this matter is highly trained israeli commandos boarded a ship in international waters and killed civilians, HIGHLY TRAINED COMMANDOS ffs against a few protesters, that is morally wrong and israel should be brought to justice for there atrocities. but then when did they ever give a shit about what other countries think of them and will continue do what ever they feel fit no matter how wrong or unjust they are.

As I said (and seem to be ignored), the soldiers only boarded the ships in international borders, becuase if they would do it in Gaza's waters the Hamas would have gotten involved too, leading to more casualties for both sides.

You say "highly trained commandos against a few protestors", there were 7 commandos soldiers armed with paint guns, and there were in the region of 100 protestors attacking them with metal bars, knives and axes.

There should've been 7 more dropping down to help the other soldiers, but the peace activists tied down the cable for the soldiers to go down from to the ship trying to crash the plain. What moral people are they, these peace loving protestors, ah?

Now, let me make it clear. I do accept that the actions taken by the IDF may have been wrong, and if they could have stopped the ships without making physical contact with them, it would be for the best, but the IDF, naivly, really planned to board a ship of peace protestors, definetly not an angry mob with metal bars. The soldiers felt their lives were in danger and that's when they drew the weapons.

I was supposed to be going paintballing at the weekend, but fuck that.

so again i ask how many of the idf were killed and how many protesters

in fact theres no need to answer as everyone knows already none and the complete overreaction of the idf has once again led to innocent people who were not carrying guns been shot to death in the name of self defence .

REBEL GOONER wrote:so again i ask how many of the idf were killed and how many protesters

in fact theres no need to answer as everyone knows already none and the complete overreaction of the idf has once again led to innocent people who were not carrying guns been shot to death in the name of self defence .

I'll ask you a question rebel.

A couple of cops in the UK comes to evacuate 15 protestors that block the entrance to a factory that is suspect of excessive pollution. When all of a sudden the protestors bring out cold weapons and start mobbing the cops. As a cop what would you do?

In last night's case, there were in the region of 10-15 soldiers agaisnt 100-120 violent protestors (600 passengers on the ship in total).

And please please, explain how the fuck a man that attacks another man with a knife, club, metal bar, axe, is innocent?!?!

as john Lennon once said..."GIVE PEACE A CHANCE"
And Jaw jaw NOT War War!(dunno who said that)

daniel

not for one minute would i ever believe that the commandos went on to that ship peacefully, remember these are highly trained and you would know a lot more about the israeli army then i but im assuming that commandos would be one of the better armed,most trained etc etc.. so surely when they go to shoot someone they more then most know how to injure or how to kill,
plus why was there a floatila in the first place because
Israel has been blocking aid from reaching Gaza. Many of the foodstuffs which are being sent are being left to rot in warehouses and shipyards deliberately by Israeli officials. The UN and Red Cross have constantly complained about the blockade and the refusal to allow in the aid that's needed. People are starving, children, old women and men are suffering badly purely because Israel wants to put a squeeze on Hamas. This is collective punishment for Hamas' crimes. This is illegal and a crime against humanity

REBEL GOONER wrote:daniel

not for one minute would i ever believe that the commandos went on to that ship peacefully, remember these are highly trained and you would know a lot more about the israeli army then i but im assuming that commandos would be one of the better armed,most trained etc etc.. so surely when they go to shoot someone they more then most know how to injure or how to kill,

If what you say was true, then I don't understand why the other 5 ships were escorted peacfully to the Israeli ports and the supllies they carried will be delivered in the next few days to Gaza?

The soldiers went down there planning to take over this ship as peacfully as possible, but they are trained to be ready for any situation happening to them along the way.

I'm not a commando soldier, and I don't know anyone that is one, but I'm pretty certain that when you're being attacked by more than 10 people in the same time, you can't really aim perfectly. Would have loved to give you a more detailed answer, but I don't know.

plus why was there a floatila in the first place because
Israel has been blocking aid from reaching Gaza. Many of the foodstuffs which are being sent are being left to rot in warehouses and shipyards deliberately by Israeli officials. The UN and Red Cross have constantly complained about the blockade and the refusal to allow in the aid that's needed. People are starving, children, old women and men are suffering badly purely because Israel wants to put a squeeze on Hamas. This is collective punishment for Hamas' crimes. This is illegal and a crime against humanity

If you want the honest true, the Flotilla was sent as a PR exercise, that worked on the back of Israel.

Food and medical supplies are transferred regulary to Gaza, that's what I know. Don't know where your sources are, but niether me or you, are living in Gaza to know the whole trurh.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure Israel is not perfect, but I think your description of people in Gaza dying of hunger every day, is exagurated, to say the least.

Let me say this. I would rather be under Israeli blockade, than blockade by any other advanced countries (USA, UK, Russia, China, etc).

PS

The supplies that were on the ships is being sent to Gaza in the last few hours.