Hillsbrough Investigation

[SWLGooner]

I wouldn't go so far as to say perverting the course of justice but I would say get a load of OB in a group tasked with a major event and the mix of wrong'uns and over eager uniformed vigilantes will often cause problems big time.

[RossieGooner]

considering they havent won the league since before the incident it's not that surprising they're still going on about it all. success makes bad things go away. they just havent had enough of it. the scousers are all about the small victories edit: i don't in any way mean to disrepect those that died. it was a tragic event and is very difficult to watch the footage anytime i see it. im just going on about their ridiculous behavior this many years down the road.

They won the League in 1990, a year after Hillsborough

And they won FA Cup the year of Hillsborough ?

[ArsenalSooner]

meh. i don't really mind not being perfect on scouse history. oh well. i still think they need to take some blame and stop being so ignorant

[flash gunner]

Fair enough Herd and SWL i cant knock you basing you views on your experiences. As you might have guessed from my post my experiences of them are different and the bad ones ive seen at various times ive put down to there being good and bad in every walk of life. I also dont agree with the institutional racism tag i think its a cop out (no pun intended) that cant be proved one way or the other and can be used as a stick to beat the police by anyone with a grudge or a general dislike

[Herd]

Flash fair enough,but the institutionally racist tag was the mets own admission in the handling of the Steven Lawrence case to cover up that some officers from the met were allegedly on the take from a Mr Norris (a very naughty villain) and deliberately let the guilty ones free cos one of them was his son.

[flash gunner]

Flash fair enough,but the institutionally racist tag was the mets own admission in the handling of the Steven Lawrence case to cover up that some officers from the met were allegedly on the take from a Mr Norris (a very naughty villain) and deliberately let the guilty ones free cos one of them was his son.

As i said before Herd i dont doubt some are Racist as with every profession in the world there are good and bad, in theory when talking about the police they should all be good but unfortunately human nature doesnt work like that. To call the police institutionally racist would suggest all or the majority are racist and i think in the 21st century that isnt true.

[worthing_gooner]

The Hillsborough disaster was mainly caused by police incompetence.

There were four pens in that end of the ground, and the two on the outside were relatively empty. However, instead of funnelling the away fans into those two pens, they funnelled more and more into the middle two, which were already overcrowded.

People towards the front of these pens were being crushed against the fence, but due to communications issues despite these people screaming to get out, the police continued funnelling people into the two middle pens.

People began to climb over the fence to get out of those middle pens, but obviously many younger people were unable to do so, and of course those in the middle were simply being crushed and trampled.

Rather than delay kick off, the game went ahead as usual on time, but before long it was obvious there was a massive issue, and the two outer fences on the middle pens collapsed under the weight of people. Many people fell over in the domino effect and were trampled to death.

The major thing here is that within hours, the policeman in charge that day said it was Liverpool fans bundling into the middle pens without tickets, but that has never been proven, and in fact a report back in the early nineties suggested that it was actually the police continuing to shuffle people into those middle pens whilst the outer ones remained relatively empty.

The real salt in the wound came when Kelvin MacKenzie who was editor of The Sun at the time led with a banner "The Truth" and said that liverpool fans had trampled people, drunkenly tried to force their way into the middle pens, and even urinated on police trying to help the injured.

In fact, the vast majority of the liverpool fans were sober, and the deceased all had blood tests done (including one eleven year old boy!) which showed little or no alcohol - and certainly not enough to suggest they were drunkenly out of control.

In fact, if you watch any footage of the disaster, you will see many ordinary liverpool fans trying to pass youngsters out of the pens, and later recussitating and carrying the injured on stretchers made from advertising hoardings.

In the meantime, nobody has been held accountable and the Liverpool fans have been wrongly accused of being hugely responsible for this when in fact there was little they could do and the vast majority saved a lot of lives issuing on the spot first aid.

So I back the campaign very much, despite the fact I think the mousers are scum, they were wrongly accused. Kelvin MacKenzie was and is a complete *word censored* and the government have repeatedly refused to lay the blame with anyone.

Kelvin MacKenzie has refused to provide his sources for the quotes for liverpool fans urinating on police who were trying to help - but if the government release the papers, these sources - these liars - would be revealed and justice would finally be done - or at the very least an apology will be issued by the police which is a long time coming.

[rolypoly]

the reason for the reluctance of the government to authorise disclosure until now is not that the documents will give any more information as to what happened, what went wrong or where responsibility lies, - nothing new to disclose - but severe embarrassment and shock will be caused by memos etc being passed around abusive of football supporters generally and liverpool fans in particular, and demonstrating efforts to pass the buck on to the fans as much as poss and minimise blame on the police.


eg somewhere among the mountains of paperwork , if all intact but doubtful, there would exist or rather have existed a memo recording shocking offensive remarks eg by no less a person than thatcher.

political dynamite years ago but of no political consequence now.

somebody in this gov will offer sincere apologies for any offence caused and life will move on pretty well as much as before.

and thats why the documents are now being disclosed- because nobody in power now actually gives a hoot and no careers are on the line.

i`m not going to get involved in debate as to where blame lies- one thing i am sure we are all agreed about- those who died were definitely blameless and thats the tragedy and sadness of it all.

[Herd]

To call the police institutionally racist would suggest all or the majority are racist and i think in the 21st century that isn't true.

They are just as racist they just hide it better !

[MK Gould]

The Hillsborough disaster was mainly caused by police incompetence.

There were four pens in that end of the ground, and the two on the outside were relatively empty. However, instead of funnelling the away fans into those two pens, they funnelled more and more into the middle two, which were already overcrowded.

People towards the front of these pens were being crushed against the fence, but due to communications issues despite these people screaming to get out, the police continued funnelling people into the two middle pens.

People began to climb over the fence to get out of those middle pens, but obviously many younger people were unable to do so, and of course those in the middle were simply being crushed and trampled.

Rather than delay kick off, the game went ahead as usual on time, but before long it was obvious there was a massive issue, and the two outer fences on the middle pens collapsed under the weight of people. Many people fell over in the domino effect and were trampled to death.

The major thing here is that within hours, the policeman in charge that day said it was Liverpool fans bundling into the middle pens without tickets, but that has never been proven, and in fact a report back in the early nineties suggested that it was actually the police continuing to shuffle people into those middle pens whilst the outer ones remained relatively empty.

The real salt in the wound came when Kelvin MacKenzie who was editor of The Sun at the time led with a banner "The Truth" and said that liverpool fans had trampled people, drunkenly tried to force their way into the middle pens, and even urinated on police trying to help the injured.

In fact, the vast majority of the liverpool fans were sober, and the deceased all had blood tests done (including one eleven year old boy!) which showed little or no alcohol - and certainly not enough to suggest they were drunkenly out of control.

In fact, if you watch any footage of the disaster, you will see many ordinary liverpool fans trying to pass youngsters out of the pens, and later recussitating and carrying the injured on stretchers made from advertising hoardings.

In the meantime, nobody has been held accountable and the Liverpool fans have been wrongly accused of being hugely responsible for this when in fact there was little they could do and the vast majority saved a lot of lives issuing on the spot first aid.

So I back the campaign very much, despite the fact I think the mousers are scum, they were wrongly accused. Kelvin MacKenzie was and is a complete c**t and the government have repeatedly refused to lay the blame with anyone.

Kelvin MacKenzie has refused to provide his sources for the quotes for liverpool fans urinating on police who were trying to help - but if the government release the papers, these sources - these liars - would be revealed and justice would finally be done - or at the very least an apology will be issued by the police which is a long time coming.

Great post! Summed it up perfectly. Hope we can finally get to the whole truth. And I hope that everyone will take the trouble to read it when it comes out!

[This Is The Daybreak]

I haven't read this whole thread but some of the negative comments really upset me. This was a disaster that could have happened at any time at any ground and it so sadly happened to be the supporters of Liverpool Football Club. There were times even at Highbury that there was the crowd overflowing onto the pitch (West Ham in the early 80s I believe) and we were saved by the absence of fences. I was proud when at Anfield in 2009 on the 20th anniversary (when Arshavin got the 4 goals) we started up a chant of justice for the 96 which we got an applause from the Scousers for.

[StuartL]

The Hillsborough disaster was mainly caused by police incompetence.

There were four pens in that end of the ground, and the two on the outside were relatively empty. However, instead of funnelling the away fans into those two pens, they funnelled more and more into the middle two, which were already overcrowded.

People towards the front of these pens were being crushed against the fence, but due to communications issues despite these people screaming to get out, the police continued funnelling people into the two middle pens.

People began to climb over the fence to get out of those middle pens, but obviously many younger people were unable to do so, and of course those in the middle were simply being crushed and trampled.

Rather than delay kick off, the game went ahead as usual on time, but before long it was obvious there was a massive issue, and the two outer fences on the middle pens collapsed under the weight of people. Many people fell over in the domino effect and were trampled to death.

The major thing here is that within hours, the policeman in charge that day said it was Liverpool fans bundling into the middle pens without tickets, but that has never been proven, and in fact a report back in the early nineties suggested that it was actually the police continuing to shuffle people into those middle pens whilst the outer ones remained relatively empty.

The real salt in the wound came when Kelvin MacKenzie who was editor of The Sun at the time led with a banner "The Truth" and said that liverpool fans had trampled people, drunkenly tried to force their way into the middle pens, and even urinated on police trying to help the injured.

In fact, the vast majority of the liverpool fans were sober, and the deceased all had blood tests done (including one eleven year old boy!) which showed little or no alcohol - and certainly not enough to suggest they were drunkenly out of control.
In fact, if you watch any footage of the disaster, you will see many ordinary liverpool fans trying to pass youngsters out of the pens, and later recussitating and carrying the injured on stretchers made from advertising hoardings.

In the meantime, nobody has been held accountable and the Liverpool fans have been wrongly accused of being hugely responsible for this when in fact there was little they could do and the vast majority saved a lot of lives issuing on the spot first aid.

So I back the campaign very much, despite the fact I think the mousers are scum, they were wrongly accused. Kelvin MacKenzie was and is a complete c**t and the government have repeatedly refused to lay the blame with anyone.

Kelvin MacKenzie has refused to provide his sources for the quotes for liverpool fans urinating on police who were trying to help - but if the government release the papers, these sources - these liars - would be revealed and justice would finally be done - or at the very least an apology will be issued by the police which is a long time coming.

Great post! Summed it up perfectly. Hope we can finally get to the whole truth. And I hope that everyone will take the trouble to read it when it comes out!

I agree with much of your post, but I don't think anybody has suggested that the poor unfortunate ones at the front who got there early. were in any way drunk, or misbehaving. It would be the latecomers at the back of the pen, who may have been drunk and through their lateness been too excessive in their pushing to get in and get a view of the match, which contributed - together with police negligence - to a terrible tradgedy.

I was at Highbury that day as we beat Newcastle 1-0 and although the full horror had yet to be told, I thought back to games on the North Bank where I had been carried in a crowd and pushed up against a barrier for a few seconds unable to breathe or move myself away or swept along with my feet no longer on the ground.

I hope this provides some kind of closure for the families - not just an excuse to find someone to blame.

[MK Gould]

I agree with much of your post, but I don't think anybody has suggested that the poor unfortunate ones at the front who got there early. were in any way drunk, or misbehaving. It would be the latecomers at the back of the pen, who may have been drunk and through their lateness been too excessive in their pushing to get in and get a view of the match, which contributed - together with police negligence - to a terrible tradgedy.

I was at Highbury that day as we beat Newcastle 1-0 and although the full horror had yet to be told, I thought back to games on the North Bank where I had been carried in a crowd and pushed up against a barrier for a few seconds unable to breathe or move myself away or swept along with my feet no longer on the ground.

I hope this provides some kind of closure for the families - not just an excuse to find someone to blame.

I was at the Arsenal v Newcastle match as well and recall the strange atmosphere as news started to break.... Also recall going into a pub after the match at Finsbury Park and hearing a minority of fellow gooners saying they were scousers and deserved it!

But the point is that you are repeating the "myth" that this was in any way caused by drunken fans. That's exactly what the police said, and the Sun repeated at the time - and I think has already been proven to be a lie. It will be great to see the full facts, but even with the little we really know at the moment it seems clear that the police opened the main gates and then made no effort to stop everyone heading into the same pen. And then they refused to open the safety gates to ease the pressure.

I feel that the Liverpool fans/families are absolutely justified in not letting this rest! This isn't like they are still complaining about a poor refereeing decision.....we're talking about 96 sons/daughter/husbands/wives dying when they shouldn't have done!

[StuartL]

I agree with much of your post, but I don't think anybody has suggested that the poor unfortunate ones at the front who got there early. were in any way drunk, or misbehaving. It would be the latecomers at the back of the pen, who may have been drunk and through their lateness been too excessive in their pushing to get in and get a view of the match, which contributed - together with police negligence - to a terrible tradgedy.

I was at Highbury that day as we beat Newcastle 1-0 and although the full horror had yet to be told, I thought back to games on the North Bank where I had been carried in a crowd and pushed up against a barrier for a few seconds unable to breathe or move myself away or swept along with my feet no longer on the ground.

I hope this provides some kind of closure for the families - not just an excuse to find someone to blame.

I was at the Arsenal v Newcastle match as well and recall the strange atmosphere as news started to break.... Also recall going into a pub after the match at Finsbury Park and hearing a minority of fellow gooners saying they were scousers and deserved it!

But the point is that you are repeating the "myth" that this was in any way caused by drunken fans. That's exactly what the police said, and the Sun repeated at the time - and I think has already been proven to be a lie. It will be great to see the full facts, but even with the little we really know at the moment it seems clear that the police opened the main gates and then made no effort to stop everyone heading into the same pen. And then they refused to open the safety gates to ease the pressure.

I feel that the Liverpool fans/families are absolutely justified in not letting this rest! This isn't like they are still complaining about a poor refereeing decision.....we're talking about 96 sons/daughter/husbands/wives dying when they shouldn't have done!

I am sure that some years ago I saw some video footage of outside the stadium, where hundreds of fans were in a narrow entrance with a police horse or two for company and this was a pushing, shoving hive of human activity.

Were they drunk ? I don't know - FA Cup semi final, wouldn't most fans have had a drink or two on a day away from home ? Hard to prove as they wouldn't be the ones who had tests done on them.

Did they all have tickets ? - again I don't know - some, most ? Liverpool have a reputation which they seem to enjoy for getting into games without paying.

The police mishandled it of that there can be no doubt but I personally do not think they were soley to blame and hope that the full details are made public.

I know a guy well who was there that day in the Liverpool end, he doesn't talk about it and he still has some psychological issues about that day 20 odd years on.

The great pity is that it took a tradegy like that to prevent fans being herded like cattle into pens at grounds like Southampton.

[worthing gooner]

I think that if any finding come out of this that can let people rest then so be it but arent there any supporters groups from LFC asking about their supporters behaviour at all?
Takes 2 to create problems.