The Gooner Forum

There will never be peace in our lifetime im sure.
I think there are places in this world who actually like waring against each other..SAD!

I take your point John, and I don't want to get too involved in this one for obvious reasons, but you must remember that the SAS organised, payed and armed death squads in NI for over ten years. They also trained and supplied the terrorists that bombed Dublin

Got to take issue with this.

It's presenting rumour as fact.

Personally, I believe it's false propaganda a la Gerry Adams.

The SAS were in conflict with both sets of terrorists.

The bastards who bombed Dublin would be perfectly able to copy the methods of the bastards who were bombing in the north. Without the assistance of any government's military personnel.

Sorry. Off subject.

YES TO WORLD SECULARIZATION

ah utopia...

QuartzGooner wrote: And Flash, am I not allowed to speak on this because YOU say so?

If you have some sort of personal dislike of me then so be it, but at least look at what I post and answer point rationaly instead of pre dismissing what I write based on some sort of personal antipathy

I dont dislike you Quartz i dont always agree with what you write and within this thread again i dont agree with you but i dont dislike you, i also have a right to put my point of view across whether you like it or not. I have some knowledge on this subject through reading books so my views are as valid as anyone else' and again you use the rascism card with Sid when he disagrees with you

As i said earlier teams of the best diplomats in the history of the world have tried to solve the Israeli/Palestinian problem and have failed miserably and a thread like this within a football forum is bound to cause animosity eventually i think..... Past history within this subject on here would suggest the same thing too

Believe it or not I studied International Political Relations at University..
The following quote, from Machiavelli, seems apt in the circumstances:

"Men rise from one ambition to another: first, they seek to secure themselves against attack, and then they attack others."

Another from Hegel:

"Governments have never learned anything from history, or acted on principles deducted from it."

And my particular favourite:

"Genuine tragedies in the world are not conflicts between right and wrong. They are conflicts between two rights."

"Shit happens"...

flash gunner wrote:

QuartzGooner wrote: And Flash, am I not allowed to speak on this because YOU say so?

If you have some sort of personal dislike of me then so be it, but at least look at what I post and answer point rationaly instead of pre dismissing what I write based on some sort of personal antipathy

I dont dislike you Quartz i dont always agree with what you write and within this thread again i dont agree with you but i dont dislike you, i also have a right to put my point of view across whether you like it or not. I have some knowledge on this subject through reading books so my views are as valid as anyone else' and again you use the rascism card with Sid when he disagrees with you

Well I have never said that any member of this Forum is not allowed to speak on any subject, it's not my call to do so.

On contrary I am very interested to read all opinions on this and argue against them as I feel.

I was that your comment that "The Usual Suspects" were posting about this matter was insightful and negative. Of course myself and DanielD will comment on issues relating to this, and why should we be chastised for doing so?

I think you are being unfair on me accusing me of pulling a "Racism Card".

Firstly you accused me over a certain member who had made an anti-Irish comment. That comment was clear for all to see and I objected to it. The member then redressed the issue, explaining it was made as a joke, and I accepted that, and posted a thread to apologise.
I made a thread on it because I wished to make it publicaly known that I had withdrawn my accusation of racism.
In hindsight I should have PM'd said member and asked him to explain.

The issue with Sid was similar. If people talk about "Semitic Money" they are clearly highlighting ethnicity. In this instance his comments were identical to far right rhetoric that has been used for over 100 years, and is very immflamatory.

Sid has said he is not racist but the comments are very close as those used by the Nazis and have to be examined and explained.

So Sid has now done so and assured me of his lack of racial predjudice, and lesson learned is that I should ask each individual to further explain comments before accusing them of being a dyed in the wool racist, I accept that.

But I also stand by my request for explanation of contentious comments.
I did not pull out any of what you call a "race card" because Sid disagreed with me, as some kind of argument technique, because Rebel has disagreed with me on here but I have not thought of him as racist.

I think that none of the participants of this thread believe there is any kind of trophy to win by this thread, as it is such a divisive issue.

I do though believe that people's experiences, not just their opinions, can actually make others more open minded on this subject.
That a thread such as this can actually work to dismantle the "Demonization" of Israel that has been whipped up by the media, and to actually look at reality and the way forward to a peaceful solution in the area.

As i said earlier teams of the best diplomats in the history of the world have tried to solve the Israeli/Palestinian problem and have failed miserably and a thread like this within a football forum is bound to cause animosity eventually i think..... Past history within this subject on here would suggest the same thing too

The above quote is the last im going to say on this subject as my informed opinions have been aired enough and i wont be brail beaten into submission Quartz as youve done with others on this subject in previous threads im just suprised that you didnt repond to the above actually

Thats my lot cheers

flash gunner wrote:

As i said earlier teams of the best diplomats in the history of the world have tried to solve the Israeli/Palestinian problem and have failed miserably and a thread like this within a football forum is bound to cause animosity eventually i think..... Past history within this subject on here would suggest the same thing too

The above quote is the last im going to say on this subject as my informed opinions have been aired enough and i wont be brail beaten into submission Quartz as youve done with others on this subject in previous threads im just suprised that you didnt repond to the above actually

Thats my lot cheers

I did respond.

I said I think threads like this are beneficial and can work to increase mutual understanding on both sides.

Just to clear up your ill advised analogy of the Belgrano, Quartz; the Belgrano was a military vessel at a time of war. The vessel boarded and attacked by Israeli special ops was on a humanitarian aid mission.

Maritime law historically suggests exclusion zones are for neutral vessels. That is why the Captain of the Belgrano and the Argentine government in 1984 declared the sinking of the vessel as legitimate.

I am not going to get drawn into providing evidence for Isaraeli aggression on civilians, this thread is about the flotilla. Please don't patronise the forum, however, with the good work of Tony Blair or suggest that the Palestinian plight is a happier one. There is an open air prison around their barren land. Their fertile land is in the hand of illegal settlements.

Thought that said GAZZA AIDS SHIPS!!!

I doubt we would agree but my whole view questions what exactly is "Palestine" anyway, and when and how that national identity arose.

I'd also like to know this...had it explained to me recently by a fellow uni student (on exchange from the US, but she is Jewish) that Palestine is not actually a "country" as such, but a "territory"? Not sure if I understood it correctly, and it was only a very quick explanation...but I'm still a bit confused over the whole matter...



Second question: Where is the place with all the new tunnel systems importing heaps of stuff illegally or something? Saw a short documentary/story on that recently enough too. Seemed like trade was booming for the lucky few in charge of their tunnels - not so exciting for the poor bastards risking being crushed every day though.

Cockerill's chin wrote:Just to clear up your ill advised analogy of the Belgrano, Quartz; the Belgrano was a military vessel at a time of war. The vessel boarded and attacked by Israeli special ops was on a humanitarian aid mission.

Maritime law historically suggests exclusion zones are for neutral vessels. That is why the Captain of the Belgrano and the Argentine government in 1984 declared the sinking of the vessel as legitimate.

I am not going to get drawn into providing evidence for Isaraeli aggression on civilians, this thread is about the flotilla. Please don't patronise the forum, however, with the good work of Tony Blair or suggest that the Palestinian plight is a happier one. There is an open air prison around their barren land. Their fertile land is in the hand of illegal settlements.

The Israeli government is in a state of war with the Gazan government.
If the flotilla was so peaceful, why was it carrying arms and equipment that could be used to make weapons?

Tony Blair has done good work, there is no patronising, that is just you trying to shape this discussion with emotive terminology.

The West Bank is a disputed territory, but it is not "occupied" as Arab pressure labels it.

It was relinquished by Jordan in 1980.

It is as integral to Israel as Tel Aviv.

The entire territory was supposed to be part of the Jewish homeland made from the former Ottoman territories, which ever since it was announced in the early years of the last century, was whittled away by Arab pressure until it merely became the small country it is today.

The Arabs have had every opportunity to live in peace ever since the Jews returned in larger numbers from 1880's. Some 1.5M Arabs do live in peace in Israel, but the rest chose to fight.

It is their and Israel's loss that they do so.

Just wanted to let you know:

- The "peace activists" who attacked the Israeli soldiers were wearing ceramic armor, and no IDs. Additionally, they had large sums of money in their pockets (reportedly $10,000 each). Sounds like soldiers of fortune to me..

- The shipment of goods on the ships was delivered yesterday to Gaza, not including loads of medicine which their usage date was expired.

- Just so you know. All of the equipment that was delivered, was on a total of 25 trucks. The total trucks of aid delivered by Israel on a daily basis is 100.

A question to ask is:

Why were hundreds of people sailing with the supplies?

Surely more room would have been available on each ship if there was just a crew, and a few logistic administrators, on each ship?

QuartzGooner wrote:A question to ask is:

Why were hundreds of people sailing with the supplies?

Surely more room would have been available on each ship if there was just a crew, and a few logistic administrators, on each ship?

That question makes sense to me.

Cannot think of a sensible answer right now...but I am tired. Or there may not be one.