As we're unlikely to see terraces again at football, this is the virtual equivalent where you can chat to your hearts content about all football matters and, obviously, Arsenal in particular. This forum encourages all Gooners to visit and contribute so please keep it respectful, clean and topical.
worthing gooner wrote:I think that if any finding come out of this that can let people rest then so be it but arent there any supporters groups from LFC asking about their supporters behaviour at all?
Takes 2 to create problems.
Exactly this.
Liverpool fans have a rep for "jibbing" which goes a long way back. Also fake tickets seem to be a common occurance with their fans. Maybe those tickets are an aid to jibbing?
The Liverpool fans in the above clip are laying all the blame on the police and our club. Not one single fan is having a go at all their people with dodgy tickets. They are blameless. Sound familiar? Pffff!
StuartL wrote:I am sure that some years ago I saw some video footage of outside the stadium, where hundreds of fans were in a narrow entrance with a police horse or two for company and this was a pushing, shoving hive of human activity.
Were they drunk ? I don't know - FA Cup semi final, wouldn't most fans have had a drink or two on a day away from home ? Hard to prove as they wouldn't be the ones who had tests done on them.
Did they all have tickets ? - again I don't know - some, most ? Liverpool have a reputation which they seem to enjoy for getting into games without paying.
The police mishandled it of that there can be no doubt but I personally do not think they were soley to blame and hope that the full details are made public.
I know a guy well who was there that day in the Liverpool end, he doesn't talk about it and he still has some psychological issues about that day 20 odd years on.
The great pity is that it took a tradegy like that to prevent fans being herded like cattle into pens at grounds like Southampton.
Stuart - I didn't say that there weren't any drunken fans. I said it's been fairly much disproved that it was caused by drunken fans.
And so what that some (a lot?) of them didn't have tickets. I was one of maybe 30,000 Arsenal fans in Paris for the CL Final without a ticket.....
StuartL wrote:I am sure that some years ago I saw some video footage of outside the stadium, where hundreds of fans were in a narrow entrance with a police horse or two for company and this was a pushing, shoving hive of human activity.
Were they drunk ? I don't know - FA Cup semi final, wouldn't most fans have had a drink or two on a day away from home ? Hard to prove as they wouldn't be the ones who had tests done on them.
Did they all have tickets ? - again I don't know - some, most ? Liverpool have a reputation which they seem to enjoy for getting into games without paying.
The police mishandled it of that there can be no doubt but I personally do not think they were soley to blame and hope that the full details are made public.
I know a guy well who was there that day in the Liverpool end, he doesn't talk about it and he still has some psychological issues about that day 20 odd years on.
The great pity is that it took a tradegy like that to prevent fans being herded like cattle into pens at grounds like Southampton.
Stuart - I didn't say that there weren't any drunken fans. I said it's been fairly much disproved that it was caused by drunken fans.
And so what that some (a lot?) of them didn't have tickets. I was one of maybe 30,000 Arsenal fans in Paris for the CL Final without a ticket.....[/quote]
Yes, but you didn't try to "jib" yourself into the stadium did you?
This is a very emotive subject. Tragic. We have all been affected by it.
Liverpool fans really have to come to terms with the fact that some of their people are in some way to blame. Otherwise there will be no closure. Ever.
Jibbing has never been confined to scousers,thousands of Arsenal did it in Paris for the CL final .
The isles of the stade de France were packed with them .
I cant think of anyone who wouldn't Jib it if they could get into a major game.
That doesn't mask the fact the the entire Hillsborough situation was entirely preventable from Dibble,and that after the situation reached critical could have been downgraded if the dibble had acted with prudence which they didn't !
Herd wrote:Jibbing has never been confined to scousers,thousands of Arsenal did it in Paris for the CL final .
The isles of the stade de France were packed with them .
I cant think of anyone who wouldn't Jib it if they could get into a major game.
That doesn't mask the fact the the entire Hillsborough situation was entirely preventable from Dibble,and that after the situation reached critical could have been downgraded if the dibble had acted with prudence which they didn't !
And if there had been deaths in Paris due to overcrowding then Gooners would be free from blame?
Herd wrote:Jibbing has never been confined to scousers,thousands of Arsenal did it in Paris for the CL final .
The isles of the stade de France were packed with them .
I cant think of anyone who wouldn't Jib it if they could get into a major game.
That doesn't mask the fact the the entire Hillsborough situation was entirely preventable from Dibble,and that after the situation reached critical could have been downgraded if the dibble had acted with prudence which they didn't !
And if there had been deaths in Paris due to overcrowding then Gooners would be free from blame?
Absolutely. If the police had opened a gate and allowed me and the other 29,999 to gain entry without a ticket then they would be to blame!
If we'd kicked a door down and forced entry then that would be different.....but that isn't what happened at Hillsborough!
PS I think that those in charge at the Stade Velodrome should also be in trouble for allowing standing in both ends and at the side at last Wednesday's CL game. I saw many people falling over in our section after the goal....although this didn't cause a problem as there was plenty of room. But I saw one surge in the upper tier of their end that reminded me of the terraced Kop of long ago. Except they didn't have crash barriers. An accident waiting to happen.....
worthing gooner wrote:Everyone is in charge of their decisions. The people(Fans) outside the ground made a choice and have no accountability for their actions.
Bullsh*t....! If Arsenal left a gate open we'd all go through it no questions asked. If you were given £500 from the cashpoint when you'd only asked for £250 you wouldn't say a word. If Kylie drank too much in a West End club and ended up taking you home.... You get my drift?
Sometimes in life it's not the decision itself that is the problem. It's the controls that are put in place to stop wrong decisions being made when the consequences are so high!
worthing gooner wrote:Everyone is in charge of their decisions. The people(Fans) outside the ground made a choice and have no accountability for their actions.
Bullsh*t....! If Arsenal left a gate open we'd all go through it no questions asked. If you were given £500 from the cashpoint when you'd only asked for £250 you wouldn't say a word. If Kylie drank too much in a West End club and ended up taking you home.... You get my drift?
Sometimes in life it's not the decision itself that is the problem. It's the controls that are put in place to stop wrong decisions being made when the consequences are so high!
Yeh, yeh, yeh.
We are all responsible for our actions. I sometimes drive at 40mph in a 30mph limit. I've had no problems at all.
But if I knocked over some old dear crossing the road too slowly...I could hardly blame the police for not taking my license away before that happened.
I get what you're saying. But you can't totally blame bad policing for the Hillsborough tragedy.
I didn't absolve the Scousers completely Old Git ,but ground safety is the responsibility of the the Fa the club and the Police .
The Police the Club and the FA knew the end was a problem so why did they issue a safety certificate for it ?
They also know that the entrance to the side ends had to be tightly regulated,as they had done the year before with great success,there were buffer zones set up where u had to show your ticket b4 u went further.
They also saw the situation unfold in front of them bu they began by allowing the kick off and battering back the already crushed fans.
Worst of all they have covered the findings of all this for the last 21 years.
Herd wrote:Jibbing has never been confined to scousers,thousands of Arsenal did it in Paris for the CL final .
The isles of the stade de France were packed with them .
How? We were stopped at a ticket checkpoint surrounding the ground. Had our tickets checked one at a time and were then admitted into the concrete area with beer tents around the actual stadium. Tickets were then checked again as we queued to enter the stand itself... certainly didn't see thousands of Gooners packing the aisles either.
You sure this didn't happen at a game in Singapore, Rahim?
worthing gooner wrote:Everyone is in charge of their decisions. The people(Fans) outside the ground made a choice and have no accountability for their actions.
Bullsh*t....! If Arsenal left a gate open we'd all go through it no questions asked. If you were given £500 from the cashpoint when you'd only asked for £250 you wouldn't say a word. If Kylie drank too much in a West End club and ended up taking you home.... You get my drift?
Sometimes in life it's not the decision itself that is the problem. It's the controls that are put in place to stop wrong decisions being made when the consequences are so high!
MK, If i start throwing right handers and get caught on CCTV then my actions are being judged. The point that i originaly made was that at no point has the stream of one way blame train ever stopped at the supporters were also involved in creating problems. The Fans as a group couldnt of imagined that the day would have turned out like that and they will have to live with it till they die. An emotive subject that even after all the info is released will still never satisfy all.
Herd wrote:Jibbing has never been confined to scousers,thousands of Arsenal did it in Paris for the CL final .
The isles of the stade de France were packed with them .
How? We were stopped at a ticket checkpoint surrounding the ground. Had our tickets checked one at a time and were then admitted into the concrete area with beer tents around the actual stadium. Tickets were then checked again as we queued to enter the stand itself... certainly didn't see thousands of Gooners packing the aisles either.
You sure this didn't happen at a game in Singapore, Rahim?
Db 10 Nice way of saying u actually attended a game Quality !
Well for one my son got in on a fake at the great cost of 30 euros easy Jib .
There were many other ways people got in too but I cannot reveal the full secrets of Jibbing (It's like revealing the secrets of the magic circle).
There were people everywhere in my section and I saw similar in other sections but u may not have noticed them unless you were standing on your seat I grant you.
The worse failed attempt was my friend Phil who impaled himself trying to climb over ,his brother made it he didn't and waited over an hour to be helped down.
Herd wrote:
The worse failed attempt was my friend Phil who impaled himself trying to climb over ,his brother made it he didn't and waited over an hour to be helped down.
Which was at our turnstile where the police used the water cannon to try to manage the build up of fans caused by your mate Phil stuck on the spikes!
Having seen said Phil stuck about 20 foot above our heads, I wonder
Im not saying it was clever and it did cause problems but the french ob were *word censored* that day as usual PSG and Worse Real Zaragoza
a) Was he badly hurt? Amazingly no the spike went through the fleshy bit ,he lost a fair bit of blood BUT was walking the next Day.
b) What was he thinking of! Desperate to get in ,the two with him got in and he would of had he not slipped ,Phil must be 50 or so and is an Arsenal nut !
