Gaza's "aid" ships - Any question will be answered

[QuartzGooner]

CCTV footage of the people on the ship's deck just prior to and at the start of the Israeli's boarding.
Do they look like middle aged "Greenham Common" type women to you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZlSSaPT ... r_embedded#!

[Cockerill's chin]

Soldiers of fortune armed with a slingshot, broken bottle and a piece of timber. Biblical weapons against MA4s.

Why would they need $10,000 Daniel? £2.50 from B&Q will have supplied the armoury.

Dreadful that youare painting these as combatants. Special forces committed murder. I cannot reason with extremists.

[QuartzGooner]

Soldiers of fortune armed with a slingshot, broken bottle and a piece of timber. Biblical weapons against MA4s.

Why would they need $10,000 Daniel? £2.50 from B&Q will have supplied the armoury.

Dreadful that you are painting these as combatants. Special forces committed murder. I cannot reason with extremists.

If they had been armed with rifles/machine guns etc then they would have got no sympathy whatsoever from anyone outside of the Islamicist core support.

They deliberately chose mainly non "firing" weapons to make a PR splash.
The fact that at close quarters these weapons are very deadly, that a mob of them surrounded each soldier who had previously boarded five other ships without incident, seems lost on you.

Labelling me as an "Extremist" serves what purpose?

To demonize me?

Hamas is cynically trying and succeeding in demonizing Israel through it's PR campaign.
To obscure the facts to such an extent so that any defence of Israel is seen as absurd, because everyone is conditioned to incorrectly believe that Israel is a demon state.

If you want to know all about religious extremists, Hamas are your guys.

[DanielD]

Soldiers of fortune armed with a slingshot, broken bottle and a piece of timber. Biblical weapons against MA4s.

Why would they need $10,000 Daniel? £2.50 from B&Q will have supplied the armoury.

Dreadful that youare painting these as combatants. Special forces committed murder. I cannot reason with extremists.

The whole PR wouldn't work if they were to carry AK47s.

What are they if not combatants? I'll be super specific; The people that held knives and metal bars, that attacked the Israeli soldiers going down the cables, that threw one of them off the deck, that tied the Helicopter plane to the ship for it to crash, that snatched a weapon off a soldier, that were paid to do it. Are these people peace activists (AKA the ones that were on the other ships)?

[g88ner]

The whole PR wouldn't work if they were to carry AK47s.

What are they if not combatants? I'll be super specific; The people that held knives and metal bars, that attacked the Israeli soldiers going down the cables, that threw one of them off the deck, that tied the Helicopter plane to the ship for it to crash, that snatched a weapon off a soldier, that were paid to do it. Are these people peace activists (AKA the ones that were on the other ships)?

No, they weren't peace activists. They look like a mob of angry amateurs armed with rods, broken bottles and slingshots.

Angry yes, but not a huge threat if dealt with properly, surely?

It still looks to me like a tactical mess and a bungled operation by Israel, as they failed to calm and/or disperse the crowd and also failed to accurately gauge the mood onboard before sending in the commando's into a confined space full of an angry mob.

I still can't help think it could and should have been dealt with differently.

It's my opinion that Israel went into this with the best of intentions - but that doesn't excuse the mess they made of it.

There's a responsibility that comes with the position Israel found themselves in. We've seen many examples down the years of how police tactics can effectively deal with an angry mob, and we've also seen countless examples of how things can quickly get out of hand if dealt with inappropriately... and from what I've seen, I think the bungled operation the whole world saw the other night was an example of the latter.

[DanielD]

The whole PR wouldn't work if they were to carry AK47s.

What are they if not combatants? I'll be super specific; The people that held knives and metal bars, that attacked the Israeli soldiers going down the cables, that threw one of them off the deck, that tied the Helicopter plane to the ship for it to crash, that snatched a weapon off a soldier, that were paid to do it. Are these people peace activists (AKA the ones that were on the other ships)?

No, they weren't peace activists. They look like a mob of angry amateurs armed with rods, broken bottles and slingshots.

Angry yes, but not a huge threat if dealt with properly, surely?

It still looks to me like a tactical mess and a bungled operation by Israel, as they failed to calm and/or disperse the crowd and also failed to accurately gauge the mood onboard before sending in the commando's into a confined space full of an angry mob.

I still can't help think it could and should have been dealt with differently.

It's my opinion that Israel went into this with the best of intentions - but that doesn't excuse the mess they made of it.

There's a responsibility that comes with the position Israel found themselves in. We've seen many examples down the years of how police tactics can effectively deal with an angry mob, and we've also seen countless examples of how things can quickly get out of hand if dealt with inappropriately... and from what I've seen, I think the bungled operation the whole world saw the other night was an example of the latter.

I agree. As I said in previous posts, the IDF had very poor intelligence, not knowing what to expect when they boarded the ship.
They really thought they were going to board a ship with peace activists (like in the other 5 ships), but instead they were dealing with an angry mob.

It should've dealt with differently, I accept, but our only fault was that we were too confident (or naive) that we were dealing with REAL peace activists.

[Cockerill's chin]

Your justification of the murders, labelling charity workers of all faiths islamic martyrs serves your purpose Quartz. Why when people argue do you look for the aim behind the language in an attempt to ridicule it but cannot see the extremist target of your own rhetoric?

These were not combatants. If they were soldiers of fortune armed with slingshots and timber then they were hired from circa 200BC.

Their deaths are tragic and indefensible to all but extremists. From the net many in Israel regret this incident. You seem to hold views far towards the right of Israeli politics. My aim is not to demonize you but your views demonize the innocent lives lost. That is much more important here.

[DB10GOONER]

I take your point John, and I don't want to get too involved in this one for obvious reasons, but you must remember that the SAS organised, payed and armed death squads in NI for over ten years. They also trained and supplied the terrorists that bombed Dublin

Got to take issue with this.

It's presenting rumour as fact.

Personally, I believe it's false propaganda a la Gerry Adams.

The SAS were in conflict with both sets of terrorists.

The bastards who bombed Dublin would be perfectly able to copy the methods of the bastards who were bombing in the north. Without the assistance of any government's military personnel.

Sorry. Off subject.

Olgit, I don’t want to get too deeply into such a divisive issue on here (we have enough with the Gaza one!) but I am certainly not “presenting rumor as factâ€

[QuartzGooner]

Your justification of the murders, labelling charity workers of all faiths islamic martyrs serves your purpose Quartz. Why when people argue do you look for the aim behind the language in an attempt to ridicule it but cannot see the extremist target of your own rhetoric?

These were not combatants. If they were soldiers of fortune armed with slingshots and timber then they were hired from circa 200BC.

Their deaths are tragic and indefensible to all but extremists. From the net many in Israel regret this incident. You seem to hold views far towards the right of Israeli politics. My aim is not to demonize you but your views demonize the innocent lives lost. That is much more important here.

In whatever way you chose to label me or my views are your business.

Those people on deck were armed combatants who knew the risks involved in attacking the commandos who landed on deck.

They could have met them with no weapons in hand, and offered for the ship to be searched.

They chose to fight. They chose to enter combat. They knowingly sailed into a war zone.

The people on the other ships met the commandos peacefully. They are alive, and the goods were transferred to Gaza the next day.

What I cannot understand is you dismissing my information on the Islamic nature of the people on deck, their anti Jewish chanting, and that they spoke to family members and friends before sailing expressing the possibility that they die as "Islamic Martyrs".

[Cockerill's chin]

Your inside knowledge of the charity workers is as alarming as it is impressive.

[DB10GOONER]

I locked the other Gaza thread because one thread on this subject going round and round in circles is enough. Bumping this to keep it up there for the main posters. Remember to be adults and to be civil, guys. Cheers.

[QuartzGooner]

Your inside knowledge of the charity workers is as alarming as it is impressive.

Please watch again.

Hardly some skinny hippies armed with flowers!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZlSSaPT ... r_embedded#!

[frankbutcher]

Your inside knowledge of the charity workers is as alarming as it is impressive.

Please watch again.

Hardly some skinny hippies armed with flowers!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZlSSaPT ... r_embedded#!

They look like a really intimidating bunch.... At first glance i thought they were all on a fishing trip. They look exactly what they are - protesters. Why would protesters be placid 'hippies' as you describe. Protesters are fighting for a cause - literally. The fact of the matter is that the IDF acted illegally against a humanitarian flotilla. When their bungled operation went wrong, they lost their temper and acted with disproportionate force. Why not just fire warning shots? The problem with Israelis is that they can never take a step back and look at the perpective of the situation. They are right, and everyone else is wrong. I'm not agreeing with the pro-Gaza movement either. Their senseless and continued bombing raids against innocent Israelis is simply un-acceptable.

The problem I fear is that there will simply be no middle-ground as neither side seem willing to negotiate.

[QuartzGooner]

Your inside knowledge of the charity workers is as alarming as it is impressive.

Please watch again.

Hardly some skinny hippies armed with flowers!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZlSSaPT ... r_embedded#!

They look like a really intimidating bunch.... At first glance i thought they were all on a fishing trip. They look exactly what they are - protesters. Why would protesters be placid 'hippies' as you describe. Protesters are fighting for a cause - literally. The fact of the matter is that the IDF acted illegally against a humanitarian flotilla. When their bungled operation went wrong, they lost their temper and acted with disproportionate force. Why not just fire warning shots? The problem with Israelis is that they can never take a step back and look at the perpective of the situation. They are right, and everyone else is wrong. I'm not agreeing with the pro-Gaza movement either. Their senseless and continued bombing raids against innocent Israelis is simply un-acceptable.

The problem I fear is that there will simply be no middle-ground as neither side seem willing to negotiate.

Really? All male. Well built. Holding deadly weapons?

With links to IHH, a Turkish "Charity" linked to Hamas and Al-Queda.

Not exactly a placid bunch.


You ask why couldn't the Israelis fire warning shots?

Because the previous five boats were boarded peacefully.

There was no need for warning shots, it was an inspection. Until those guys on deck decided they would greet the Israeli commandos with violence.


There was not a need for a humanitarian flotilla. Gaza is not starving.
It was a self declared PR move, no more, no less.


You say that Israelis cannot step back and look at the perspective?
The perspective is rather different when you are cheek by jowl with hostile states and militias who attack on a daily basis.

You are incorrect saying that neither side has been willing to negotiate.

There have been numerous talks over the years.

The Britsh offered the Palestinians a state called Trabns-Jordan. They took it.

The UN offered the Arabs another state in 1947.
They refused. They wanted to fight.

Israeli has offered the Palestinians a state.
But Arafat preffered to fight.

[Emma_bryne]

Really? All male. Well built. Holding deadly weapons?

With links to IHH, a Turkish "Charity" linked to Hamas and Al-Queda.

Not exactly a placid bunch.


You ask why couldn\'t the Israelis fire warning shots?

Because the previous five boats were boarded peacefully.

There was no need for warning shots, it was an inspection. Until those guys on deck decided they would greet the Israeli commandos with violence.


There was not a need for a humanitarian flotilla. Gaza is not starving.
It was a self declared PR move, no more, no less.


You say that Israelis cannot step back and look at the perspective?
The perspective is rather different when you are cheek by jowl with hostile states and militias who attack on a daily basis.

You are incorrect saying that neither side has been willing to negotiate.

There have been numerous talks over the years.

The Britsh offered the Palestinians a state called Trabns-Jordan. They took it.

The UN offered the Arabs another state in 1947.
They refused. They wanted to fight.

Israeli has offered the Palestinians a state.
But Arafat preffered to fight.

Whats he doing in all of this :0