4-4-2 or 4-3-3?
- Barriecuda
- Posts: 2651
- Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 1:39 am
- Location: Canada
- Contact:
4-4-2 or 4-3-3?
1. What do you think will be Arsenal's primary formation next season?
2. What do you think it should be (if you don't agree with #1)?
2. What do you think it should be (if you don't agree with #1)?
-
- Posts: 2645
- Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2008 10:39 am
- Location: Living next door to my neighbours
- brazilianGOONER
- Posts: 9208
- Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:27 am
- Location: i think we're parked, man
- Contact:
I'm not sure how much store I set by formations. I'd want a 4-4-2 because that has always been our most successful formation. Even in our barren period, we did well in 2008 when we had Adebayor/Van Persie as a front two. Wenger has gone for a 4-3-3 to accomodate Fabregas but it leads to our attacking players being played out of position and our holding players (Song and, supposedly, Denilson) being required to show discipline but they aren't up to it. It's hardly coincidence that our switch to a 4-3-3 has led to some of the worst defending in Arsenal's history.
He arrived as very much a 4-4-2 man, and had to be convinced by Adams and co. to stick with 5-3-2 for the rest of his first season. Following that, he scrapped it, and from 1997 until about 2008-09, it was 4-4-2 all the way.
It worked well in 2008 with Rosicky, Flamini, Cesc and Hleb, but after that midfield was ripped apart, and the likes of Song, Denilson and Diaby were thrown in at the deep end (way, way before they were ready), 4-4-2 became a massive problem as we had an inexperienced core to our midfield and were unable to cope.
Wenger had a choice... buy a top quality holding midfielder OR go for quantity over quality, and play with an extra body in there... meaning ridiculous amount of game time for Denilson (51 games), Diaby (36) and Song (48 ). As their appearances that season show, he clearly chose the latter
As well as the problem we were having in midfield, I think another reason we moved to 4-3-3 was the success of Mourinho and then Fergie's teams using the more cautious 4-3-3 formation.
So, I think that between these 2 reasons, Wenger has felt forced into leaving his comfort zone and taking a tactical approach instead - and, sadly, he's been well and truly exposed in this area.
Square pegs in round holes aplenty, as players bought for 4-4-2 had the rug pulled from under them. Eduardo, Van Perise, Vela and Bendtner have all spent time out wide. Van Persie has managed to re-invent himself as a lone striker after a depressing spell on the wing, but the others have seen themselves pushed out wide... and in the case of Bendtner, the bizarre decision to re-invent him as a wide man has probably halted his career. Eduardo was crying out for a strike partner, but instead our fox-in-the-box was moved from lone striker to wide left to lone striker to wide left... how depressing for fans and player alike. As for Eboue as a wide forward.... scandalous.
BUT finally, I think we're coming to terms with the formation. Van Persie is banging them in at an unbelievable rate... Cesc fits in perfectly inbetween midfield and attack... Nasri has massively improved out wide... and Wilshere looks the perfect foil for a holding midfielder.
4-4-3 is even played at all ages now throughout the Arsenal academies.
To revert back to 4-4-2 now just won't happen. It would mean another huge overhaul, and Wenger just won't do it. I'm certain.
It worked well in 2008 with Rosicky, Flamini, Cesc and Hleb, but after that midfield was ripped apart, and the likes of Song, Denilson and Diaby were thrown in at the deep end (way, way before they were ready), 4-4-2 became a massive problem as we had an inexperienced core to our midfield and were unable to cope.
Wenger had a choice... buy a top quality holding midfielder OR go for quantity over quality, and play with an extra body in there... meaning ridiculous amount of game time for Denilson (51 games), Diaby (36) and Song (48 ). As their appearances that season show, he clearly chose the latter

As well as the problem we were having in midfield, I think another reason we moved to 4-3-3 was the success of Mourinho and then Fergie's teams using the more cautious 4-3-3 formation.
So, I think that between these 2 reasons, Wenger has felt forced into leaving his comfort zone and taking a tactical approach instead - and, sadly, he's been well and truly exposed in this area.
Square pegs in round holes aplenty, as players bought for 4-4-2 had the rug pulled from under them. Eduardo, Van Perise, Vela and Bendtner have all spent time out wide. Van Persie has managed to re-invent himself as a lone striker after a depressing spell on the wing, but the others have seen themselves pushed out wide... and in the case of Bendtner, the bizarre decision to re-invent him as a wide man has probably halted his career. Eduardo was crying out for a strike partner, but instead our fox-in-the-box was moved from lone striker to wide left to lone striker to wide left... how depressing for fans and player alike. As for Eboue as a wide forward.... scandalous.
BUT finally, I think we're coming to terms with the formation. Van Persie is banging them in at an unbelievable rate... Cesc fits in perfectly inbetween midfield and attack... Nasri has massively improved out wide... and Wilshere looks the perfect foil for a holding midfielder.
4-4-3 is even played at all ages now throughout the Arsenal academies.
To revert back to 4-4-2 now just won't happen. It would mean another huge overhaul, and Wenger just won't do it. I'm certain.
Last edited by g88ner on Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Gunnersaurus
- Posts: 4151
- Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:06 am
- Location: london
I think when Cesc goes he will switch back to 442 with van Persie playing the deeper 'playmaker' role.
If he does go for Barton then him and Jack in the middle would work which is why I think he is looking at wingers and possibly a striker if Cesc goes.
Shoot me down but if he sticks to 433 and Cesc goes then I want to see Arshavin in Cesc's role, with little defensive responsibility and being the start of most attacks I'm sure we will see the best of him.
He can rip teams apart, its getting his head right and motivated which is the problem, if he had two dogs behind him for security then he would flourish.
If he does go for Barton then him and Jack in the middle would work which is why I think he is looking at wingers and possibly a striker if Cesc goes.
Shoot me down but if he sticks to 433 and Cesc goes then I want to see Arshavin in Cesc's role, with little defensive responsibility and being the start of most attacks I'm sure we will see the best of him.
He can rip teams apart, its getting his head right and motivated which is the problem, if he had two dogs behind him for security then he would flourish.
4-4-2/4-4-3 home against park the bus teams, 4-5-1 away and home against top teams.
4-4-2:
----------------Shezza------------------
Sagna----Samba---Verms----New LB
Nasri------Cesc-----Parker----Arshavin
-----------RvP---------Theo--------
4-5-1:
----------------Shezza------------------
Sagna----Samba---Verms----New LB
------------Cesc-----Parker---------
Nasri--------Jack/Alvarez--------Gervinho
------------------RvP--------------
4-3-3:
----------------Shezza------------------
Sagna----Samba---Verms----New LB
-------------Parker/Song---------------
--------Cesc-----------Jack/Alvarez-----
Nasri/Gervinho---RvP--------Arshavin
Koscileny to come in for European games and against technical PL teams.
Chamakh for the physical games ie Stoke, Blackburn
Ramsey, Djourou, Gibbs, Jenkinson, Ryo, Lansbury, Mannone etc squad players.
4-4-2:
----------------Shezza------------------
Sagna----Samba---Verms----New LB
Nasri------Cesc-----Parker----Arshavin
-----------RvP---------Theo--------
4-5-1:
----------------Shezza------------------
Sagna----Samba---Verms----New LB
------------Cesc-----Parker---------
Nasri--------Jack/Alvarez--------Gervinho
------------------RvP--------------
4-3-3:
----------------Shezza------------------
Sagna----Samba---Verms----New LB
-------------Parker/Song---------------
--------Cesc-----------Jack/Alvarez-----
Nasri/Gervinho---RvP--------Arshavin
Koscileny to come in for European games and against technical PL teams.
Chamakh for the physical games ie Stoke, Blackburn
Ramsey, Djourou, Gibbs, Jenkinson, Ryo, Lansbury, Mannone etc squad players.
4-4-2 is fairly pointless unless you have genuine wide players.....we don't. But I wish we did have them and we did play 4-4-2!!
The best formation for the players we have is possibly a midfield diamond in a 4-4-2 formation, (I hate that personally) but Wenger never plays that so it will continue to be 4-5-1, which we struggle to break down teams with.
We've said it before - lack of tactical knowhow remains a big problem at Arsenal under Wenger and our lack of genuine wide players restricts the options we have.
The best formation for the players we have is possibly a midfield diamond in a 4-4-2 formation, (I hate that personally) but Wenger never plays that so it will continue to be 4-5-1, which we struggle to break down teams with.
We've said it before - lack of tactical knowhow remains a big problem at Arsenal under Wenger and our lack of genuine wide players restricts the options we have.
Ryo Miyaichi could be that player as he's ridiculously quick and can dribble and cross. Too young though.TeeCee wrote:4-4-2 is fairly pointless unless you have genuine wide players.....we don't. But I wish we did have them and we did play 4-4-2!!
The best formation for the players we have is possibly a midfield diamond in a 4-4-2 formation, (I hate that personally) but Wenger never plays that so it will continue to be 4-5-1, which we struggle to break down teams with.
We've said it before - lack of tactical knowhow remains a big problem at Arsenal under Wenger and our lack of genuine wide players restricts the options we have.
- SpanishJoe
- Posts: 419
- Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:39 pm
- Location: granada, spain
Managers these days seem terrified of being overrun in midfield so go for 5 in the middle. Personally, I'm not too bothered which formation we play as long as we've got the right players in the correct positions (i.e. no fat, lazy Russians on the wing).
imo it's a red herring to blame formations for conceding at set plays.
imo it's a red herring to blame formations for conceding at set plays.
Percy loves all these debates about formations so will be thrilled when he see's this thread
Personally I feel that it is too easy nowadays to blame cesc for the shambles that this formation is by claiming it was done purely for him - I feel that cesc was a factor in that decision but the biggest factor was the lack of a strong physical DM who would do the ball winning and allow cesc to play in the conventional 4-4-2 system.
As many have said already, the shite formation is compounded by the crazy wenger decisions that see's players being constantly played out of position with big head bendtner being the most laughable example
Arshavin too is best suited to the number 10/Bergkamp role sitting in behind the main striker but is being asked to fcuk about on the wing and has been less than successful doing so. Wenger might like to call this system 4-3-3 but how a 4-3-3 system can leave a striker isolated up front is beyond me but then again how can our full backs be continually isolated in a 4-5-1 formation either ?
A few seasons ago I would have advocated the 3-5-2 system cos I felt that was the system that would have suited our players best. Right now I want us to revert to a 4-4-2 formation and if we havent got the player to work in that system then get some in and get shot of those that cant work in that system. Wenger might like to look at the success moaninho had with 4-3-3 or that barca currently have playing that way but he simply hasnt got the tactical acumen to make it work for him. Both of the aforementioned teams had players who worked their nuts off to make that system work but we have too many players who might put in a decent shift today and not bother at all for the next month. Moaninho showed when he was chav manager that less than 100% would not be accepted in that system when he subbed 2 of his players after just 20 minutes (duff and 1 other) of a match a few years ago while wenger wont, unless injury forces him otherwise, make changes before the 65th-70th minute of a game


Personally I feel that it is too easy nowadays to blame cesc for the shambles that this formation is by claiming it was done purely for him - I feel that cesc was a factor in that decision but the biggest factor was the lack of a strong physical DM who would do the ball winning and allow cesc to play in the conventional 4-4-2 system.
As many have said already, the shite formation is compounded by the crazy wenger decisions that see's players being constantly played out of position with big head bendtner being the most laughable example


A few seasons ago I would have advocated the 3-5-2 system cos I felt that was the system that would have suited our players best. Right now I want us to revert to a 4-4-2 formation and if we havent got the player to work in that system then get some in and get shot of those that cant work in that system. Wenger might like to look at the success moaninho had with 4-3-3 or that barca currently have playing that way but he simply hasnt got the tactical acumen to make it work for him. Both of the aforementioned teams had players who worked their nuts off to make that system work but we have too many players who might put in a decent shift today and not bother at all for the next month. Moaninho showed when he was chav manager that less than 100% would not be accepted in that system when he subbed 2 of his players after just 20 minutes (duff and 1 other) of a match a few years ago while wenger wont, unless injury forces him otherwise, make changes before the 65th-70th minute of a game

1989 wrote:4-4-2/4-4-3 home against park the bus teams, 4-5-1 away and home against top teams.
4-4-2:
----------------Shezza------------------
Sagna----Samba---Verms----New LB
Nasri------Cesc-----Parker----Arshavin
-----------RvP---------Theo--------
4-5-1:
----------------Shezza------------------
Sagna----Samba---Verms----New LB
------------Cesc-----Parker---------
Nasri--------Jack/Alvarez--------Gervinho
------------------RvP--------------
4-3-3:
----------------Shezza------------------
Sagna----Samba---Verms----New LB
-------------Parker/Song---------------
--------Cesc-----------Jack/Alvarez-----
Nasri/Gervinho---RvP--------Arshavin
Koscileny to come in for European games and against technical PL teams.
Chamakh for the physical games ie Stoke, Blackburn
Ramsey, Djourou, Gibbs, Jenkinson, Ryo, Lansbury, Mannone etc squad players.
Like you optimism 1989.Nasri and Cesc in all your line ups
