The English player myth

[Nos89]

After Greg Dykes key note speech I'm a bit annoyed at the blame being landed at the big clubs for the lack of English players. In the last 10 years how many English players have played in and won the Champions League? How many English players are currently regular first team starters with the current English Champions first team?

It's not the big club's fault the England national team is average, it's the Football Association. They spent over £800m on a huge stadium instead of investing at grass roots level. They left that to the clubs. They should hold their hands up and admit they got it wrong, and move on. English players have never been consistently the best in Europe, let alone in the world. Only 4 English players have ever won the accolade of European Player of the Year, Stanley Matthews, Bobby Charlton, Kevin Keegan and Michael Owen.

The "Golden" generation of England produced European and domestic champions that got no further than the quarter finals at any international tournament they qualified forwhy is that? They were knackered after a long hard season and largely had a foreign manager in the English dressing room. Who makes those decisions? - the FA.

[benglenton]

you're right, we have to win again World Cup in Brazil next year

[northbank123]

This has been debated elsewhere but the problems are at grass roots level. Supposedly bold or unorthodox national team selections is pissing in the wind in the grand scheme of things - by the time these players are 18 they're irretrievably technically inferior to their counterparts.

There is a different footballing culture here to other countries and no amount of policies will ever completely align us with foreign counterparts but until the FA makes the decision to keep kids playing small-sided pitches until 13 or 14 (and not 11) and actually takes real steps to promote technical ability and not physical superiority or win at all costs at a young age then we're going to be embarrassingly shown up. The change has to come at national level before they can expect to see real change at academy level or even dream about it trickling down to kids kicking a ball about for fun.

All a pipe dream really because although Dyke appears more willing to shake things up all people are want to hear are completely baseless aims like winning the WC by 2022. Bet if we were to revisit this in 4 years time there will have been plenty of lip service paid to change by senior figures but minimal difference.

[QuartzGooner]

Northbank says most of it, but just to add that other causes are

- School playing fields being sold off.
- Poor coaching in schools and youth club teams where emphasis is on winning by using players big for their age group rather than technical skills.
- Video game generation of kids who prefer to eat crisps and chat on their phones to playing football in the streets and parks.

[Number 5]

I'm with Chris Waddle on this one.

Eeeeuugh I feel dirty all over.

Scouts still pick the biggest and fastest players. At all levels of the game.

I sent some players up to Barnet last week and they invited back tallest and most athletic 12 year old as a goalkeeper.

Now he's a nice lad but he won't be playing in goal for my team once this season. Not unless I want to ship in 10 goals a match. The keeper half a foot shorter will be going in cos he's 5 times better. But he didn't get invited back.

So what did they see?

[markyp]

take a trip past a school field during a p.e lesson,what are they playing?Usually hockey,softball,rugbycricket etc etc anything other than football,theres your problem!!!I can honestly say at my time at secondary school 84-89 we played football once during a p.e lesson,i was a good footballer as a kid playing counties etc at u12 level but the p.e teachers never even knew i played football because we never played it at school.i never played for the school team during secondary school,why bother when football isnt encouraged and tbh I was falling out of love with playing it.we had a lot of really really good players too at school,really good,who could have at a minimum been good enough to go on to non league,but without the enouragment all drifted away during secondary school,its no good saying we are crap at football when its not actively encouraged at so many schools.also I cant stand the argument about too many foreingers ruining us,its a load of bullshit,take a look at the championship,look how many English players play in that league and how many of them play for England,ok so they are championship players I hear you say but that is the level the the EPL would be at without the foreigners,can you honestly say that if you took the English players for example from lets say Blackburn,removed all the foreign players from lets say Man utd and intergrated the two so that the Blackburn players would be playing alongside the likes of carrick,young,rooney,that they would become as good as anything out there world wide,cos this is what people seem to think will happen.just because you are now playing in the EPL it doesn't now all of a sudden make you a world beater,you are the exact same player as you were at blackburn.at the end of the day English players lack discipline on the whole,think they are Charlie big potatoes before they've even achieved anything and are way to content living the lifestyle instead of knuckling down like the foreigners,David Bentley springs to mind!!we aren't good enough because at grass roots and through the schools its gone tits up imho

[augie]

English players do not travel....FACT. If English football is to progress then their players have to be willing to move outside their own borders and gain experience of a different style of football and a different culture. It is no coincidence to me that france and spain's international sides only started to win trophies when they started exporting their players to England - it was there that their players learned the importance of commitment and aggression and they could then merge that with their own technical skills to make themselves better all round footballers.

Maybe dyke should question why it is that inferior English players costs so much more than better and more experienced foreign players - if English players were priced at a level befitting their ability then maybe more of them would be getting their chance at the top level instead of having the likes of wigan importing players from south America simply because English players are out of their price range

[clockender1]

and to be fair, it is also the kids ethics themselves - not prepared to work hard, go that extra mile, watch their diet, not smoke, not drink like the europeans do and that's not just in football - didn't Jamie Oliver say recently that european kids are miles ahead of English kids effort levels ?

you only have to look at Pennant and Bentley's careers to know talent is not enough.

English kids think they've made it when they reach the first team squad, European kids think they've made it when they lift the European Cup...

a prime example - don't know what year (97/98?) , but me and my (elderly) Dad are standing in the queue at the Chippy before a game and in walk Paolo Vernazza ( actually a local lad) and the other trainees, clad in the club designer black suits, black shirts etc.

Vernazza pushed in straight at the front edging my Dad out of the way and says all cocky "we play for Arsenal", to which a big lad steps up from behind him and gives him a shove out, and says "not yet you don't, you're just trainees. get to the fucking back..."



The clubs have changed themselves too - i can remember seeing trainees shovelling snow on a NYD spuds game morning, and picking up rubbish on the North Bank when i was a kid. and they used to do the club laundry and clean the pro's boots even under GG.

not anymore - now its all agents, designer suits and cell phones even for the 15/16 year olds.

only when football is once again about winning and pride in the shirt, rather than money and 'roasting' in faliraki every summer, will England do any good nationally or producing our own talent.

i do say this as a completely lazy sod myself mind

[northbank123]

English players do not travel....FACT. If English football is to progress then their players have to be willing to move outside their own borders and gain experience of a different style of football and a different culture. It is no coincidence to me that france and spain's international sides only started to win trophies when they started exporting their players to England - it was there that their players learned the importance of commitment and aggression and they could then merge that with their own technical skills to make themselves better all round footballers.

Maybe dyke should question why it is that inferior English players costs so much more than better and more experienced foreign players - if English players were priced at a level befitting their ability then maybe more of them would be getting their chance at the top level instead of having the likes of wigan importing players from south America simply because English players are out of their price range

I don't think that's the big issue Augie - by the time these kids are 18 (or even 16) they're so far behind their foreign counterparts in terms of technical ability that it's too late to play catch up.

[DB10GOONER]

All of the reasons listed above (and on the other 10 threads we've had about this ) are correct and are part of the overall problem. I remember reading somewhere Bergkamp saying that Dutch kids don't play competitive games until they are 14 or something - they spend the first 7 or 8 years learning technique on smaller pitches. Kids in Ingerland and Oireland are thrown onto a huge pitch at age 7 and told "win, be competitive, scrap for it" and not much else.

Nothing will change until we learn to teach the kids how to play at a high technical level first.

[goonersid]

When will yous ever accept that you just aint very good at foootie, 66' was s wimbledon like fluke aided by questionable decisions throughout the tournament, involving yourselves and possible future opponents.

[kiwomya]

English players need to look further than only playing in England.

It fascinates me how every other country in football has players scattered around several european leagues yet English players will sit on the benches up and down the Premier League moaning about lack of chances. IMO, some could join other European sides that play in the Europa & Champions League but they'd rather take the comfort and money of the English leagues.

[spendsum4uckingmoney]

English players need to look further than only playing in England.

It fascinates me how every other country in football has players scattered around several european leagues yet English players will sit on the benches up and down the Premier League moaning about lack of chances. IMO, some could join other European sides that play in the Europa & Champions League but they'd rather take the comfort and money of the English leagues.

I think that is basically down to money and how crap we are as a nation at learning others languages.

IMO I think we should have a B team like they do in Spains' second division but instead outsource it abroad (perhaps Holland or France?). In other words instead of having a reserves there should be an Arsenal team in France or Holland for young English players. I'm sure the EU HAVE to allow it (freedom of trade). It would be better for all our English youth to play competitive games rather than just youth games where nobody tackles.

On the same note I heard there is a football club in Spain which is like a refuge for English players, who couldn't handle the physical requirements of the English game.

I really want to see England win something before I die. The only way I can see that happening is if there is huge intervention with football, not just at conference level but even at primary school level. IMO 5 a side should be part of the national curriculum. There's no point in P.E.. The only sport kids care about is football, not rounders and not cross country. Pitches have to be better. No more rugby sharing. Perhaps more sponsorship from football clubs. I am sure the likes of City and UTD wouldn't mind coaching kids at schools during luch breaks or after school etc, as long as there is something in it for them eg a pre contract or a chance to indoctrinate them into being fans.

It's so frustrating though seeing how good we are at sports we don't give a shit about, such as cycling and yet the one sport we want we are useless at.

[I Hate Hleb]

James Bond - now there was a good English 'Player'!!

[Red Gunner]

England should just copy Germany's youth system. The population size, the economy and the popularity of football in both countries is very similar.

I myself believe England actually underachieved with their golden generation. I knows everyone laughs at the "golden generation" label but it truly was one for England. The team (and squad to a certain extent) England have nowadays is much poorer. At the back, you had Terry, Ferdinand, Campbell and Carragher. You also had Ledley King and Woodgate who were injury-prone but very good centre-backs. Then there was Cashley, a world-class left-back and Gary Neville, always dependable. In midfield, Gerrard, Lampard and Beckham were all world-class midfielders in their day. Does England have a single world-class midfielder today? No. And up front you had Owen and Rooney. Owen was a great finisher but Rooney hadn't done anything of note for England since Euro 2004.

So England had around eight world-class players back then, how many are there now? No more than two. Rooney and 32-year-old Cashley, that's it. And the former doesn't do it for England. But it's not all so bad, there are some potentially word-class players coming through. Our Jack, Walcott (don't laugh ), The Ox, Phil Jones, Joe Hart...

Interesting fact. Since England last reached the semi-finals in Euro 1996, Croatia, Turkey, South Korea, Greece, Czech Republic, Russia (my team) and Uruguay have all the semi-finals of a major competition. But who knows what will happen in future? Spain didn't reach any semi-finals since 1984 until winning an unprecedented treble.