Weakness against pressing play?

[turricaned]

Eyoop,

So - having had a spirited discussion on another thread, I wanted to try something different (and hopefully more fruitful than the AW discussion!)...

While the three away defeats this season were definitely a sore point, if we leave the Wenger argument out of it, what comes up in two of them (Anfield and Stamford Bridge) is that we seem to be vulnerable to sustained pressing play, especially on the counter. Particularly of note is that we seem to end up with defensive midfield out of position, and our centre-backs aren't the speediest in the world. Because our playing style is possession-oriented, and relies on strong attacking midfielders to nip things in the bud it's usually not much of an issue, but when our attacking midfielders aren't at full strength, it leaves us uncomfortably open.

Do you agree or disagree, and what do you think about how we should solve the issue? (in terms of tactics only - not staffing! )

[MrT]

Eyoop,

So - having had a spirited discussion on another thread, I wanted to try something different (and hopefully more fruitful than the AW discussion!)...

While the three away defeats this season were definitely a sore point, if we leave the Wenger argument out of it, what comes up in two of them (Anfield and Stamford Bridge) is that we seem to be vulnerable to sustained pressing play, especially on the counter. Particularly of note is that we seem to end up with defensive midfield out of position, and our centre-backs aren't the speediest in the world. Because our playing style is possession-oriented, and relies on strong attacking midfielders to nip things in the bud it's usually not much of an issue, but when our attacking midfielders aren't at full strength, it leaves us uncomfortably open.

Do you agree or disagree, and what do you think about how we should solve the issue? (in terms of tactics only - not staffing! )

It won't be as you are an extreme bore.

It's convenient that we are supposed to just 'leave the Wenger argument out of it' when the whole basis of tactical nous stems from the Manager and his ability to get the best out of his players.

[turricaned]

Friendly reply there - you stay classy.

I'm leaving Wenger out of this because I don't want to argue that point (it'd be redundant as it's already nearly 700 pages long elsewhere!) - I'm asking everyone, honestly, what they'd do different tactically if given the chance.

(This is a football forum, right? )

[markyp]

I THINK ITS FUCKING CALLED TACTICS,SOMETHING WENKER KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT

[clockender1]

its a lack of focus, preparation and tactics.

City, LIverpool and Chelsea all noted that in the inclusion of Cazorla and Ozil left us short defnesively in midfield and so they targeted the gap left by Caz as he doesn't track back, and went two on one with Gibbs.

Bayern did it too in the first game.

its our biggest weakness - we don't prepare for teams tactics, and we don't change ours. case in point Wenger never makes two changes before 70 minutes.

our in game management is non existent.

[Ultimatum94]

We'll be forever vulnerable to teams that press us as we need a solid physical DM to act as our defensive base in midfield.

Arteta is what I consider a creative base who's real weakness is pace and physicality which pressing highlights severely

Our back 4 needs to act like a back 4 when we're under the cosh and not allow our full backs to roam too forward and leave our centre backs isolated with an ineffective DM against the counter.

If we're to play possession football then we need a striker and attackers, ie. Walcott. Ramsey or podolski, that can ghost in behind giving the opposition something to think about and forcing to keep their defence deep and not playing with a high line that suffocates our midfield with a lack of space.

Or we can just counter their counter

[turricaned]

...and we don't change ours.
our in game management is non existent.

OK, so I'm "borrowing" the text from ZonalMarking's writeup on the 2-1 win against Liverpool in the FA Cup, because they write it better than I can...

After an hour Rodgers made a bold substitution, removing Aly Cissokho and introducing Jordan Henderson. This necessitated a reshuffle – Jon Flanagan switched to left-back, and Raheem Sterling was moved into an attacking right-back position.

This caused Arsenal problems in the ten minutes after the switch. Podolski, who rarely lasts 90 minutes and had already brought down Suarez for the penalty, didn’t look comfortable defending against Sterling’s forward charges, and it was surprising that Wenger didn’t immediately rectify this problem. He removed Podolski but brought on Cazorla instead – the man whose drifts inside had exposed his compatriot Nacho Monreal last week at Anfield.

Five minutes later Wenger realised the situation unfolding and called for Kieran Gibbs in place of Oxlade-Chamberlain, with Cazorla moving to the right and Gibbs protecting Monreal. This has been Wenger’s favoured defensive substitution this season, playing two left-backs in tandem, and although it took him a while to make the switch it was highly effective, as Sterling’s influence on the game was minimal with Gibbs tracking his runs.

In this case the reaction took time, but it did indeed happen.

[Theoperator]

All I will say is that aprt from the 4-4 fiasco and the 8-2 the tennis score losses this season were the most embarrassing for many many years. Pool didnt quite get to a tennis score but thwy were undoubtedly robbed as usual. The same sort of errors happened in each match and were clearly not rectified fast enough. All too often the left side was exposed

The other matter that may have a hint of AW in it was the fact that Bouldie had snuck some supaglue on AWs seat as he rarely got up to sort things out for all 3 matches

[LDB]

Personally I find it slightly unbelievable that a man with as much experience in football hasn't got an idea about tactics. I think a more likely scenario is that he shares Guardiola's way of thinking. Pep could see that his team were at risk of getting destroyed on the counter by Madrid and his response after the game was not to acknowledge that his team lacked a plan B but rather to argue that they hadn't done plan A well enough. Wenger is the same I think, when we give the ball away stupidly and get countered on he is not angry about the acres of space for the opposition to exploit, he's annoyed that we gave it away in the first place.

Before anyone bothers this is not me defending his approach to these games, just trying to understand it. Imo it is absolute lunacy to think we have the team or the players to tippy tappy our way to victory at Stamford Bridge, Anfield or the Etihad. What I can't quite fathom is why he came to a sensible and pragmatic conclusion when we went to Dortmund and lo and behold we nicked a 1-0 win.

[SteveO 35]

We had a fast paced, 4-4-2 system for the opening years of his reign and it brought us endless domestic success, but our performances in Europe were very average with rare exceptions and we struggled in the CL Group

He then opted for the Spanish model of more technically gifted midfielders with the aim being 'ball retention'. The issue is that we sacrificed nearly all of our physical advantage and pace, so I can see and have seen regularly how a team pressing us hard causes us problems.

Barca away when we failed to register a single shot and could barely cross the halfway line should have been the moment when he realised you need special players to play that way successfully. Personally I'd rather see a return to a more swashbuckling 4-4-2. If that means naivety in Europe so be it......at least domestically it got results

When I look back at Overmars, Petit, Anelka, Vieira sweeping the length of the field at pace, I weep at how pedestrian we are these days

[northbank123]

You can't debate a major tactical weakness that arguably underpins our consistent knack of falling short of the challengers and say "leave Wenger out of this". Fair enough no point in petty name-calling flying around or mindless anti-Wenger dross that features on too many threads but you can't seriously ignore Wenger's part in all this.

As for the main question I'm not sure I agree totally. Naturally we struggle to hit our stride when we come up against a well-organised side who press fast and effectively but who doesn't? That in itself doesn't mean it's a weakness. Although it brought Chelsea a couple of early goals that was far from the only tactical reason that game. Anfield and the Etihad we were completely undone by shocking defending more than pressing play for me. As long as we continue allowing our full-backs to maraud forward and our midfielders to fleet around as they please against good opposition we're going to be prone to getting torn about by a targeted and pacy attack.

And I'm glad you mentioned that Dortmund game LDB. Performance of the season for me, hands down. Very rarely you'll hear this but spot on from Wenger tactically and superbly executed in a discipline manner by the players. We went away in Europe to a better side than us and stopped them playing whilst being patient and increasingly threatening on the counter. It was an absolute joy to watch. Wenger will bang on about our courage if we end a losing streak with an unconvincing win over relegation fodder but that performance - staying extremely disciplined and sticking to the gameplan even though we saw not much ball and no chances in the first half in the belief it would come good in the second half as they became tired and stretched - was courage.

Unfortunately Wenger can't see a good thing when it happens and he's inexplicably ignored that game. At the other end of the scale I'd highlight the last 10 minutes of the Swansea game. Having been dreadful for the most part and fortunate to be leading, we had zero idea how to see the game out. With 5 minutes left, Arteta Flamini and Kallstrom (three supposedly defensively-minded midfielders) all pressed the same ball in Swansea's corner. A minute or two later we had both full-backs in the attacking third. At the other end we were just banking on having enough numbers back to crowd them out, there was no defensive organisation and whenever we got the ball it was just given to Kallstrom to try and pick out a difficult 40-yard pass. Sure enough despite having more than enough men back our players had no idea what to do and our players watched holding their cock in their hands whilst Swansea waltzed through and equalised.

[armchair]

Personally I find it slightly unbelievable that a man with as much experience in football hasn't got an idea about tactics. I think a more likely scenario is that he shares Guardiola's way of thinking. Pep could see that his team were at risk of getting destroyed on the counter by Madrid and his response after the game was not to acknowledge that his team lacked a plan B but rather to argue that they hadn't done plan A well enough. Wenger is the same I think, when we give the ball away stupidly and get countered on he is not angry about the acres of space for the opposition to exploit, he's annoyed that we gave it away in the first place.

Before anyone bothers this is not me defending his approach to these games, just trying to understand it. Imo it is absolute lunacy to think we have the team or the players to tippy tappy our way to victory at Stamford Bridge, Anfield or the Etihad. What I can't quite fathom is why he came to a sensible and pragmatic conclusion when we went to Dortmund and lo and behold we nicked a 1-0 win.

This. ^^^


But also this......

We had a fast paced, 4-4-2 system for the opening years of his reign and it brought us endless domestic success, but our performances in Europe were very average with rare exceptions and we struggled in the CL Group

He then opted for the Spanish model of more technically gifted midfielders with the aim being 'ball retention'. The issue is that we sacrificed nearly all of our physical advantage and pace, so I can see and have seen regularly how a team pressing us hard causes us problems.

Barca away when we failed to register a single shot and could barely cross the halfway line should have been the moment when he realised you need special players to play that way successfully. Personally I'd rather see a return to a more swashbuckling 4-4-2. If that means naivety in Europe so be it......at least domestically it got results

When I look back at Overmars, Petit, Anelka, Vieira sweeping the length of the field at pace, I weep at how pedestrian we are these days

[Leyton Gooner]

I really did think we might have turned a corner after that Dortmund game and the deluded one might just have finally acknowledged his mistakes. Was certainly our best performance not just this season but the last few imo. we were lucky with one or two of their missed chances but we earned our luck. Yet then a few weeks later it was back to square one at City. It was like he'd completely blanked Dortmund from his mind.

[Leyton Gooner]

I really did think we might have turned a corner after that Dortmund game and the deluded one might just have finally acknowledged his mistakes. Was certainly our best performance not just this season but the last few imo. we were lucky with one or two of their missed chances but we earned our luck. Yet then a few weeks later it was back to square one at City. It was like he'd completely blanked Dortmund from his mind.

[turricaned]

Fair enough no point in petty name-calling flying around or mindless anti-Wenger dross that features on too many threads but you can't seriously ignore Wenger's part in all this.

Which was actually what I was getting at - but did you see the first two responses?

Anfield and the Etihad we were completely undone by shocking defending more than pressing play for me. As long as we continue allowing our full-backs to maraud forward and our midfielders to fleet around as they please against good opposition we're going to be prone to getting torn about by a targeted and pacy attack.

Well, the whole bloody team went to pot psychologically after the first barrage at Anfield. That said, we have by no means been the worst offenders in the top 4 when it comes to defensive SNAFUs this season. Liverpool have been far more sloppy far more often, but somehow haven't been punished quite as badly for it. Even Chelsea have had their moments - the Palace game being a case in point, where JT seemed to forget that he hasn't got the legs to lead a high defensive line any more. Even City have had a few shockers - Demichelis we know about, but in general their marking has been off at times.

And I'm glad you mentioned that Dortmund game LDB. Performance of the season for me, hands down. Very rarely you'll hear this but spot on from Wenger tactically and superbly executed in a discipline manner by the players.
...
Unfortunately Wenger can't see a good thing when it happens and he's inexplicably ignored that game...

I dunno, I think the 2-0 home win against Liverpool deserves mention in that respect as well - disciplined when it came to shutting down Sturridge and Suarez - with Kos closing quite aggressively and BFG looming in reserve.

We can do defensive play when we need to, and it has served us well. I can understand why we might have been wrong-footed at Stamford Bridge, because Chelsea have been very sparing in terms of that kind of play this season - but Anfield still baffles me.