A couple of questions for the Rose Tinted Glasses Brigade

[TeeCee]

1) How long are you content for Arsenal to not win any trophies, but maybe get 4th place, as long as Wenger is in charge?

2) Would you be happy to pay over £1000 a year for a season ticket to watch a team who play great football at times, but who won't seriously challenge for trophies?

My view is that each PL team sets their stall out to achive a certain level.
The likes of Hull, WBA, Stoke etc would just be delighted to avoid relegation
Teams like Wigan, Bolton, Fulham etc will be happy with mid-table

Everton, Villa, Man City etc want a top 6 place (UEFA cup), knowing they won't realistically get 4th

Arsenal and Liverpool hope to get top two but realistically know that 3rd and 4th is likely barring a 'disaster'

Chelski and MoanUre pretty much know they will finish 1 and 2 (how we used to feel along with Moan Ure a few years ago).

I don't honestly think that Arsenal can seriously hope to be top two with our current squad. 6 or 7 years ago maybe, but not today.
A guy I work with said he watched the 'Premierships Best goals' on TV the other day, and when Paddy scored a great goal at Anfield he was mobbed by Henry, Bergkamp, Pires, Ljungberg etc. Compare those immense players to Eboue, Denilson, Diaby etc. It's depressing. We are on a downwards curve and if we let it go too far, it will be VERY difficult to get anywhere near the top again.

[26may1989]

1) How long are you content for Arsenal to not win any trophies, but maybe get 4th place, as long as Wenger is in charge?

"Content"? I want Arsenal to win every trophy, every season, and am disappointed whenever that doesn't happen. So I (no doubt, like you) am never "content" for my club not to win trophies. But surely that's true of every football fan, at some level.

If you mean how long will I accept us not winning a trophy, I'd say there isn't really a deadline - if I think Arsenal, our players, our manager and our board are doing as well as they can, then (in theory) it could be a long, long time. It depends on the circumstances.

For example, I don't acknowledge Chelsea as having achieved anything since Abramovich bought the club. Their silverware has nothing to do with footballing achievement or success, just cash. It could have been any club; Abramovich could have bought Exeter or Preston or Cambridge, and bought Ballack, Drogba, Cech, both Coles, Mikel etc (not to mention the numerous expensive flops), and hired Mourinho or Scolari and Kenyon and all the other hangers-on. Exeter or Preston or Cambridge might then have won the PL and got to Champs' League finals etc but it wouldn't make them great football clubs. But one effect of Abramovich is that it contributes to Arsenal not winning trophies.

Our situation at the moment is primarily defined by the stadium redevelopment and the possibility that offers of revolutionising the club's power and position in the footballing hierarchy on a self-funded basis. This isn't just a matter of pride, that we're doing it the "right way". It's about securing the club's future. We won't be vulnerable to the whims of an egotistical billionaire, or movements in the price of oil, or changes in football club ownership, funding, debt or wages rules by FIFA, UEFA, the FA, the PL or government. We won't be vulnerable to doing a Leeds or a Celta Vigo. But we would be in the European elite, with as stable a base as clubs like Barcelona.

That situation sets the basis for the way I think Arsenal in 2008 should be assessed.

Ultimately, my views are measured by what I think looks like being the best thing for Arsenal. And right now, despite mistakes and failings, Wenger is, in my opinion, very much the best thing for Arsenal's present and future; in fact, I don't think there is a single manager who could achieve what Wenger is achieveing right now, regardless of a lack of trophies in the past few seasons. I'm more critical of the board but they seem to me to have got the big things right (stadium, financing, etc).

Anyway, Arsenal winning trophies on a regular basis is a pretty recent phenomenon. I was a "doom and gloomer" in the early 1990s, when I saw Graham destroy the good he had done - I didn't really care when we won cups in those years, because it was obvious that, having inherited a generation featuring Adams, Merson, Rocastle and Thomas, as well as an older player in O'Leary, the flow of young players dried up under Graham, and was not supplemented with adequate signings. We were going downhill and fast, and the trophies we won during that decline just papered over the cracks.

2) Would you be happy to pay over £1000 a year for a season ticket to watch a team who play great football at times, but who won't seriously challenge for trophies?

Much of what I wrote above applies to this question too, but in addition I would say nobody should be happy at the prices of season tickets. The club should do what it can not just to keep prices down in general, but to ensure that affordable tickets are available for kids, teenagers etc. I would love to see Bundesliga-style modern terracing at Arsenal as part of that. However, in the main, the economics of football, and our desire for the best players, decide these things.

When you compare like with like (i.e., account properly for cup games), our season ticket prices are about the same as Chelsea, Spurs etc and not that much more than United.

As for challenging for trophies, what were you watching last season? We were top for most of the season, and finished only four points behind the champions with a points total that exceeds the championship-winning total in most PL seasons. If we'd retained the lead in the game at Old Trafford, we'd have been champions, that's how close it was. We may not have won the title, but it certainly satisfies the requirement to challenge. As for the cups, QF in the Champs' League is ok (though we should have got to the semis) and we did well to get the League Cup semi, even if it was painful to be trounced by Spurs. The FA Cup defeat to United was an embarrassment though, definitely a failure, even if the FA Cup isn't important these days. But on the big one, the league, we challenged.

Beautiful football has its value in terms of defining a great team's place in history. But to be a great team, of course, it first has to win trophies. Realistically, we are weaker than United and Chelsea, but miraculously, despite everything, we're still stronger than everyone else, and as we saw last season, there is the chance we could catch United and Chelsea, even during our period of restructuring.

Bottom line, I want Arsenal to win trophies as much as any Gooner. But I also want us to become one of the best and strongest clubs in the world, permanently. That might make me greedy but it is something I'm willing to be patient for.

[donaldo]

26 may 1989

You say there is no deadline for Arsenal to win a trophy.I think you are wrong.That means Wenger can continue with his "plan" regardless knowing there is pressure on him to deliver.He can fail to strengthen a weak squad while our rivals Man Utd and Chelsea continue to strengthen every summer.The longer the drought goes on the less support Wenger will have.One of Wenger"s biggest failings is his stubborness.Last january we were top of the table and a couple of signings would have carried us over the finish line.The shambles about who to play at fullback when Sagna got injured was a sign of weak management.If we dont finish in the top 4 this season i would expect Wenger to quit.The lack of top class signings this summer has giving Wenger no excuse for failure this summer.He cant blame injuries this season

[26may1989]

26 may 1989

You say there is no deadline for Arsenal to win a trophy.I think you are wrong.That means Wenger can continue with his "plan" regardless knowing there is pressure on him to deliver.He can fail to strengthen a weak squad while our rivals Man Utd and Chelsea continue to strengthen every summer.The longer the drought goes on the less support Wenger will have.One of Wenger"s biggest failings is his stubborness.Last january we were top of the table and a couple of signings would have carried us over the finish line.The shambles about who to play at fullback when Sagna got injured was a sign of weak management.If we dont finish in the top 4 this season i would expect Wenger to quit.The lack of top class signings this summer has giving Wenger no excuse for failure this summer.He cant blame injuries this season

I just don't think it's a question of there being a deadline. None of us would feel happier if Arsenal won the League Cup for example. It's all about being the best we can.

Wenger's failure to sign a DM is a significant black mark against him, I accept that. (Though there is always this Appiah possibility - if we do sign him, perhaps Wenger will say that was what he intended all along!) But while not replacing Flamini definitely makes us weaker in that part of the pitch, and Wenger is accountable for that failure, we're stronger elsewhere. Nasri is definitely a trade-up on Hleb, and our CB options are better now than they were. Plus Vela's arrival gives us something up front we didn't have last season. So, I don't accept your suggestion there have been no top class signings this summer.

I agree that Wenger has put more pressure on himself with the failure to get Alonso, Inler, Yaya or Veloso, and that our players will want to see silverware very soon. You're right, that will create problems the longer it goes on.

Even if (which I don't think will happen) we were to finish outside the top four this season, I would still say Wenger is our best bet, at least until the funds locked up in property developments are released so that we can compete in the transfer market. I just can't see any other coach being able to do what Wenger can under these conditions (and yes, I do appreciate that Wenger isn't even spending what money he has available to him).

I understand where you and the other critics are coming from, and agree with much of what you have to say. I accept that I would probably be in a minority if we really did finish 5th or lower, but all I want is for everyone to be clear about what is really best for Arsenal and form their opinions from there, rather than think only about short-term issues.

[donaldo]

But if the money from the property developments does come through and Wenger refuses to spend it and we continue to win no major trophies(i agree the League Cup is not a major trophy) where do we stand.Sometimes it seems you would have to put a gun to Wenger"s head to make him spend big.

[androyd]

I don't think I have rose tinted glasses, I just ask those who are so annoyed at Wenger who they would then have as a manager? Buying lots of players doesn't seem to be doing Spuds much good does it? Or getting lots of managers either.
No I'm not happy at the cost of my season ticket but thats the market - if our attendances start to drop then prices will no longer rise.
I hope that we win everything this year, that our kids smash Chelsea first team in the Carling Cup , that a mishmash team lift the FA cup and we do the Champions League and Premiership double. I do every year.
Why this instant rush to doom and gloom? Nasri is better than Hleb. Silvestre gives us experienced cover across the defence. Who didn't enjoy stealing Ramsey from the Mancs? If Appiah is fit and wants to play he fits the bill for midfield. How many of you doom and gloom merchants thought we would be a close third last year at this stage of the season?
No, we'd lost a 'big name' so we must be in trouble. We had not spent £40 million so we must be in trouble.

Please don't get sucked into the media and bookmaker belief that a club has to buy loads of players every year to compete. They shamelessly promote this idea because it generates something for them to write about which is easier than analysing tactics or playing styles. For the bookies it is something else to fleece punters on.
Agents willingly sign up because transfers are revenue generators. Some players get greedy.

If you want ticket prices to be affordable you should be supporting the only top UK club and manager which is taking a 'sustainable' approach to the whole thing.

Some of us can remember a time when Man United were relegated and Chelski were in lower league football. Why? Because of overspending on low quality players.
When I first started attending matches Huddersfield, Burnley and Blackpool, Wolves were long term top flight clubs.
It's easy to get it wrong and plummet - just look at Leeds.

The time to moan if you must is if we do not qualify for the champions league. Another season of failure would be a disappointment but not the end of the world.
The thing for me that has always been different about Arsenal fans compared to Mancs and Chelski is that we don't believe we have a right to win anything. Therefore winning a trophy is more enjoyable.

I ask again who would you replace Wenger with?

[Sammy Mooner]

A couple of really fabulous posts by 26may 1989 IMO - well done that man. They pretty well sum up my own views and were put so coherently there seems no point in me trying to express my own exact views.

A question though. Why is everyone (Gooners everywhere it seems) obsessed with the amount of money we should spend or that we or others do spend. Had Wenger spent £15m on Baptista the other season we would have decried it as a piss poor purchase. Every manager gets some wrong and its easy to name some spectacular pricey failures at all the top clubs. Ours included.

It is not about how much you spend - its about value for money. Clearly Wenger HAS attempted to obtain what he considered to be the correct midfielder to join us and the Club failed to negotiate a deal for any of his picks. Either he or the board wouldn't pay enough or our negotiating skills are a tad lacking right now. This is probably the only reason we now miss David Dein.

Had Wenger really wanted Alonso, for example, and he had fixed a maximum price that he would not go beyond in order to obtain his signature then fair enough. But what was required at that point was surely a board member who should have asked AW did he really, really want Alonso and if the answer was yes that said director should have insisted AFC up the offer by £3-5m or whatever it would have taken to get his signature.

But is seems to me that AW has to do everything himself right now. Quite clearly the board shouldn't tell him who to buy but every now and then they should perhaps persuade him to go the extra mile with their money. That or employ a brilliant negotiator who can be left to get on with the key purchases when AW requests them.

IMO the board should have got their arse in gear and sorted that one by now.

[QuartzGooner]

1) How long are you content for Arsenal to not win any trophies, but maybe get 4th place, as long as Wenger is in charge?

For three more seasons.

After that, if the property money we get does not help Wenger buy players, I seriously re think my thoughts on a takeover, or a partial takeover.

I will not neccessarily consider getting rid of Wenger though, as it may be he buys well in January, and had a good reason why he did not buy the defensive midfielder this summer.

I throw in a disclaimer though.

Man City...it might just be that they go and spend £500M on players.

Only Abramovich can even consider competing with that.

2) Would you be happy to pay over £1000 a year for a season ticket to watch a team who play great football at times, but who won't seriously challenge for trophies?

Yes. Arsenal is my team. Through thick and thin.

[Martin Hayes]

Some excellent posts.

I would continue to attend matches despite the exorbitant price, for as long as I could afford it.

With regard to spending, I am sure that Wenger is aware that the purchase of Manchester City will push prices through the roof, as it seems that they are prepared and able to pay whatever it takes.

I don't have (completely) rose-tinted glasses, but I will not judge Wenger until the end of the season, Fulham notwithstanding.

[TeeCee]

Personally, when Arsene does go.....and I think it will be within 3 years, then certainly at the moment, there is only one person I can think of who I'd like to see take over - Guus Hiddink. The man gets results and plays football the way it should be played (the way Arsenal currently play)!

The ticket pricing situation is an interesting one. We had some pretty big rises this year, after a few years of winning nothing. Can the club continue to put prices up if the team are winning nothing and there is relatively little investment in playing staff?
I think the club feel 'safe' with the fact that we have such a large waiting list for season tickets, but I've always maintained that it's one thing to be on a list with nothing to pay than actually having a request for £1000+ dropping through your letterbox each summer, particularly if it's for a club who are not winning trophies. We have a good hardcore of fans at Arsenal but I'm not so sure there would be 5 - 10,000 new ST holders gagging to pay over a grand next year or the year after if ST became available. I'm not saying it will happen, just throwing the question out there.
Fortunately Man City will be going for players that Arsene would never go for - ie: world stars at the top of their game, so we'll never be in a battle to sign someone with City so it shouldn't really affect us.

[Sammy Mooner]

I've always maintained that it's one thing to be on a list with nothing to pay than actually having a request for £1000+ dropping through your letterbox each summer, particularly if it's for a club who are not winning trophies.

Good call by TeeCee - something I've always thought - would also be interesting to know how many Silver members who get preferential treatment over red members are touts.

[varsas]

Last january we were top of the table and a couple of signings would have carried us over the finish line.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it? At the time we were top of the league with everyone playing well and the team looking strong. We didn't need to make signings at the time and had decent back up.

[26may1989]

Last january we were top of the table and a couple of signings would have carried us over the finish line.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it? At the time we were top of the league with everyone playing well and the team looking strong. We didn't need to make signings at the time and had decent back up.

I'm one of those called a rose tinter (though I hate the phrase, as we all think we're realists) but I don't agree with your point: it was pretty clear in January that ideally the squad should have been strengthened, and if anyone has time to go through the forum archives, they'd find the evidence there. But it was very difficult to buy what we needed, eg, Anelka would have been very expensive and possibly used up the whole of our year's budget.

But varsas, welcome to the forum, hope you enjoy it.