Senderos

Number 5 · Post by **Number 5** » Tue May 13, 2008 10:54 pm

Ras Dam wrote:Senderos had a good run in the first team during the winter. As soon as Toure got back from the African Nations Senderos was dropped. Anyone know what happened then? I think it was late February/Early March.

Arsenal lost 7 games all season and I believe Gallas started in 5 of them. It might be 6 but I can't remember.

I can think of three games in which Toure cost us badly this season. Both Milddlesbrough matches and the game against Liverpool. Those aren't the only games he messed up in but certainly the most rememberable.

Senderos and Gallas or Senderos and Toure make for a better centre back partnership than Gallas and Toure.

No,no,no

Can't you see that if Senderos had started in more games we'd have lost more games?

We lost 7 all season yes, take out FA Cup Man U, CC Spurs, and Seville away cos all 11 players were shit and no 1 person can be held accountable and your left with 4. 3 in the league.

Did something else happen in March that might have affected the team other that Phil being dropped? Something regarding a player lucky to be considering walking let alone playing again? More likely this that Phil being dropped.

Toure cost us badly twice against Boro? What for one of the softest pens you'll ever see and an offside goal? Just to clarify who equalised Vs Boro at home? He may have made one mistake Vs Liverpool. Your boy Senderos made 2.

Kolo/Willy is our best partnership among current playing staff. It needs to improve but not with Phil replacing one. It needs to be improved with an altogether better signing.

Which I think is coming.

Ras Dam · Post by **Ras Dam** » Tue May 13, 2008 10:57 pm

We lost three league games (Middlesbrough, Chelsea and United). I'll go through game by game to work out who is to blame for every draw tomorrow if you like, but if you're expecting Senderos to be at fault for most of them then I think you'll be disappointed.

Ras Dam · Post by **Ras Dam** » Tue May 13, 2008 11:08 pm

Number 5 wrote:No,no,no

Can't you see that if Senderos had started in more games we'd have lost more games?

We lost 7 all season yes, take out FA Cup Man U, CC Spurs, and Seville away cos all 11 players were shit and no 1 person can be held accountable and your left with 4. 3 in the league.

Did something else happen in March that might have affected the team other that Phil being dropped? Something regarding a player lucky to be considering walking let alone playing again? More likely this that Phil being dropped.

Toure cost us badly twice against Boro? What for one of the softest pens you'll ever see and an offside goal? Just to clarify who equalised Vs Boro at home? He may have made one mistake Vs Liverpool. Your boy Senderos made 2.

Kolo/Willy is our best partnership among current playing staff. It needs to improve but not with Phil replacing one. It needs to be improved with an altogether better signing.

Which I think is coming.

Toure and Gallas were both at fault for the 'offside' goal against Boro for not dealing with the long ball in the first place.

What evidence do you have to say that we'd have lost more games if Senderos played more? The games you told me to forget about includes one of the games that Senderos lost in, dropping his total defeats to one. Senderos made two mistakes in the game against Liverpool, yes. Luckily for us Walcott came to the rescue to make amends. It's a shame Toure's mistake knocked the fight right out of us.

I'm not saying Senderos is our best centre back, but he's certainly not our worst. I'm also not saying that we went through a poor patch of form because we played without Senderos. But playing an unfit Toure didn't help either. He was injured during the ACN and we threw him straight back into the team.

Post by **QuartzGooner** » Tue May 13, 2008 11:29 pm

Number 5 wrote:
Ras Dam wrote:
Kolo/Willy is our best partnership among current playing staff. It needs to improve but not with Phil replacing one. It needs to be improved with an altogether better signing.

Which I think is coming.

I do not think Toure and Gallas has been a good partnership this season. On paper they are both excellent players, but they have not worked well as a team this season.

I do think that was affected a bit by Toure's injury though.

If Wenger broke up that partnership, brought in a taller centre back to replace Gallas, and we won the league, it would be hailed as a stroke of genius.

Gallas would me the more likely to be sold considering his age.

It would take a lot of nerve from Wenger though.

Number 5 · Post by **Number 5** » Tue May 13, 2008 11:32 pm

Toure is our best defender. Of course he was thrown straight back in. Will John Terry be risked next week after dislocating his elbow? Hell yes. As he is Chelsea's best defender.

The evidence I have against Senderos is that we only lost 3 league games. The other you agree he fucked up twice. So that leaves three league games. Defeats to Chelsea and Man U. Chelsea yeah, Drogba yeah. Phil's nemesis innit? And Phil up against Rooney, Ronaldo and pace-io? He's been found out there too before hasn't he. The simple case is he fucks up too much. And with Kolo and Willy we lost 3 league matches, an excellent return. As I asked Northbankbren before, with only 3 defeats suffered in the league, and you advocating so strongly for Phil, surely we'd be Invincibles again if he played more often?

Yeah Kolo knocked out our fight with all 3 minutes left against Liverpool didn't he? There was nothing left to fight against really. Also again another of those soft penners.

Number 5 · Post by **Number 5** » Tue May 13, 2008 11:42 pm

QuartzGooner wrote: If Wenger broke up that partnership, brought in a taller centre back to replace Gallas, and we won the league, it would be hailed as a stroke of genius.

This is the key comment here I feel. Wenger has analysed the season and admitted we struggled wth long direct balls in the main. Set pieces were ok. He will see we need a no nonsence ariel ball winner who clears the decks first and worries about pretty passing second. Whilst taller than me, I'm sure I could out jump Senderos, Kolo and Gallas. So I am sure we'll be bringing in that type of defender. Senderos does not fit the criteria needed so will always be secondary.

Ras Dam · Post by **Ras Dam** » Tue May 13, 2008 11:42 pm

Number 5 wrote:Toure is our best defender. Of course he was thrown straight back in. Will John Terry be risked next week after dislocating his elbow? Hell yes. As he is Chelsea's best defender.

The evidence I have against Senderos is that we only lost 3 league games. The other you agree he fucked up twice. So that leaves three league games. Defeats to Chelsea and Man U. Chelsea yeah, Drogba yeah. Phil's nemesis innit? And Phil up against Rooney, Ronaldo and pace-io? He's been found out there too before hasn't he. The simple case is he fucks up too much. And with Kolo and Willy we lost 3 league matches, an excellent return. As I asked Northbankbren before, with only 3 defeats suffered in the league, and you advocating so strongly for Phil, surely we'd be Invincibles again if he played more often?

Yeah Kolo knocked out our fight with all 3 minutes left against Liverpool didn't he? There was nothing left to fight against really. Also again another of those soft penners.

Our best defender is either Clichy or Sagna.

Toure, Gallas and Senderos are all error prone. Sadly Senderos has the reputation for it. Senderos had it hard against Drogba but I can't remember him struggling too much against United last season.

Senderos did a good enough job with keeping clean sheets against the likes of Juve and Real Madrid not so long ago. Managed to keep Henry and Zidane quiet in the last World cup too.

He manages to perform when we fans don't put too much pressure on him.

Number 5 · Post by **Number 5** » Tue May 13, 2008 11:50 pm

Ras Dam wrote: Our best defender is either Clichy or Sagna.

Clichy who has made quite a few errors his-self this season and is better going foward?

Sagna who with one season behind him is, without doubt very very good, but hardly proven.

No, Toure is our best defender. He has consistantly proved over the last 4 years. He may have had a bad patch but did Adams, Keown, Bould, O'Leary, Mclintock all always play to the high high standards they set for themsleves?

burns718 · Post by **burns718** » Wed May 14, 2008 12:37 am

Number 5 wrote:
Ras Dam wrote: Our best defender is either Clichy or Sagna.
Clichy who has made quite a few errors his-self this season and is better going foward?

Sagna who with one season behind him is, without doubt very very good, but hardly proven.

No, Toure is our best defender. He has consistantly proved over the last 4 years. He may have had a bad patch but did Adams, Keown, Bould, O'Leary, Mclintock all always play to the high high standards they set for themsleves?

toure is not the best, also you would probably say that this season has been his worst of all the time he has been at arsenal, personaly i dont think he was particularly great the season before, i think this maybe similar to the dune richards debate, bear with me.

you all think richard is very good yea, but some agree that dunne is the one stabilising him.

now look at who toure has been partnered with before this season,

keown and campbell and he also had the benifit of 1 of the best midfielder the club has ever seen, vieira running the show infront of him,

all im saying is i think its more than a coincidence that since these truely great defenders have not been by his side he has looked suspect, well not his normal steady self.
this maybe something as simple as having some one tell him wat to do, i have played with people that if you talk to them throught the game a brilliant, but if you leave them to their own, the woeful. (and no im not sayin im a great player) but some players need that constant voice, weather it be for confidence or reasurance that they are doing the right thing.

keown, campbell, vieira were all vocal people gallas and the rest of the team are not, i think this is the problem personally

Magic Hat · Post by **Magic Hat** » Wed May 14, 2008 4:51 pm

Depends on his state of mind

Good defender when he is on form, superb for us in January and was harsh to see him and Jens dropped, not least when Toure was half fit. Problem is, as has been mentioned, his mistakes are what everyone remembers rather then the awe of "your not going to score" of Rio/Vidic and if mentally he is tough enough.

Ras Dam · Post by **Ras Dam** » Thu May 15, 2008 11:41 am

burns718 wrote:toure is not the best, also you would probably say that this season has been his worst of all the time he has been at arsenal, personaly i dont think he was particularly great the season before, i think this maybe similar to the dune richards debate, bear with me.

you all think richard is very good yea, but some agree that dunne is the one stabilising him.

now look at who toure has been partnered with before this season,

keown and campbell and he also had the benifit of 1 of the best midfielder the club has ever seen, vieira running the show infront of him,

all im saying is i think its more than a coincidence that since these truely great defenders have not been by his side he has looked suspect, well not his normal steady self.
this maybe something as simple as having some one tell him wat to do, i have played with people that if you talk to them throught the game a brilliant, but if you leave them to their own, the woeful. (and no im not sayin im a great player) but some players need that constant voice, weather it be for confidence or reasurance that they are doing the right thing.

keown, campbell, vieira were all vocal people gallas and the rest of the team are not, i think this is the problem personally

I think Toure has only had one great season, and that was the year we went to the Champions League Final. He seemed more composed in his challenges and knew when to back off or step up to an attacker.

He's in his mid-late twenties and he still does things I only expect from youngsters.

soultime · Post by **soultime** » Thu May 15, 2008 5:01 pm

a couple of months ago they made senderos the captain of the swiss team. he was such a captain chaos they had to sub him.

jlo · Post by **jlo** » Thu May 15, 2008 5:39 pm

Just some stats to fan the flames of this discussion. These stats show how many minutes of game time, in the Premiership, it took for the team to concede a goal for each player.

Senderos 113 minutes
Gallas 104 minutes
Toure 98 minutes

According to these we let in less goals when Senderos plays.

Post by **I Hate Hleb** » Thu May 15, 2008 7:01 pm

As has been said on here numerous times before: you can use stats to prove almost anything you want, if you choose the appropriate ones.

That's why, when analysing defensive contributions, you can't go soley by the statistics as they will be influenced largely by whom the opponents were.

Ras Dam · Post by **Ras Dam** » Thu May 15, 2008 8:08 pm

I Hate Hleb wrote:As has been said on here numerous times before: you can use stats to prove almost anything you want, if you choose the appropriate ones.

That's why, when analysing defensive contributions, you can't go soley by the statistics as they will be influenced largely by whom the opponents were.

Show me the stats that make Eboue look good.