Mikel Arteta, success or failure? - Merged thread.

[OneBardGooner]

Fuck....

So if I want to ease the pain of a loss I bet on the Chavs ... If I want to possibly risk wallet and another week of being depressed I lump it all on us, just sit above $hitty till they win their next game Hmmmm I see ...

[SteveO 35]

I think this is as good as it gets under Arteta. Admittedly in finishing 2nd, he's far exceeded my expectations but for me he is going to be a Brenda/Martinez 'nearly man' type. Attractive football and at times successful football, but always found wanting at the times it really matters.

He hasn't bought a single leadership figure to the club - well possibly one in Jorginho, but its clear he's been a fringe player until he finally had no choice but to drop that flaky c.unt Partey.

He still persists with Clive - the same failing that the senile old cock and Emery had.

He still can't sort the defence out - only Southampton with fewer clean sheets at home - WTF is that about? Take Saliba (not his signing) out of that defence and its absolutely ragbag. Most people have cried out for KT (again not his signing) to come in and replace Zinchenko. So between Ramsdale, Tomiyasu, White, Gabriel, Kiwior and Zinchenko he's spent around £170m rebuilding a defence that looks little better than the one Wenger left behind. KT and Saliba remain the best defenders and he hasn't fancied either for large chunks of his reign

Going forward Saka and Martinelli - neither signed by him - are his top assets. Jesus - jury definitely out. Odegaard - amazing, undeniable stats this season and a good talent for sure, but he can't last 90 minutes and disappears in big away games (or physical away games) far too often.

The same mental fragility that Wenger's teams had, and Unai's one season team couldn't shake, are still all too apparent. When it really matters, we go missing.

[BobbyPires7]

I think this is as good as it gets under Arteta. Admittedly in finishing 2nd, he's far exceeded my expectations but for me he is going to be a Brenda/Martinez 'nearly man' type. Attractive football and at times successful football, but always found wanting at the times it really matters.

He hasn't bought a single leadership figure to the club - well possibly one in Jorginho, but its clear he's been a fringe player until he finally had no choice but to drop that flaky c.unt Partey.

He still persists with Clive - the same failing that the senile old cock and Emery had.

He still can't sort the defence out - only Southampton with fewer clean sheets at home - WTF is that about? Take Saliba (not his signing) out of that defence and its absolutely ragbag. Most people have cried out for KT (again not his signing) to come in and replace Zinchenko. So between Ramsdale, Tomiyasu, White, Gabriel, Kiwior and Zinchenko he's spent around £170m rebuilding a defence that looks little better than the one Wenger left behind. KT and Saliba remain the best defenders and he hasn't fancied either for large chunks of his reign

Going forward Saka and Martinelli - neither signed by him - are his top assets. Jesus - jury definitely out. Odegaard - amazing, undeniable stats this season and a good talent for sure, but he can't last 90 minutes and disappears in big away games (or physical away games) far too often.

The same mental fragility that Wenger's teams had, and Unai's one season team couldn't shake, are still all too apparent. When it really matters, we go missing.

We had a run built on momentum. When the chips were down we folded. If you watch the last half dozen games closely it’s clear we have been worked out by a lot of teams. Doesn’t bode well for next season.

[fivetothree]

Seen an interview on ssn with guy who runs Toffee FanTV who spoke about the erosion of values at everton in recent years to the point that chairman bill kenright lauds a top 10 finish and things like that and how that is not good enough - he spoke about everton in the 80s being built on a team with winners mentality and that is what they have to get back to, and of course we as Gooners can understand where he is coming from. As soon as you start to dilute/reduce what quantifies as success, then that is the day that your standing as a club starts to slide - we all agree that none of us expected to finish second or be in a title bid for as long as we were so from that point of view we have of course done well, but on the flip side we have just allowed a glorious chance to pass us by because we lack the backbone and winners mentality that was needed

The lowering of standards came from the minute Chavski pulled our pants down to the tune of 5k per week for Cashley Hole. Wenger became obsessed with the ludicrous FFP shite (how has that panned out 17 years later ), got totally schooled by Maureen every game and the new stadium became an excuse to accept 4th place as a trophy. The club has never recovered from that and I already sense from recent interviews and Arteta's presser yesterday that we are back there again- delighted to have qualified, not a cat in hell's chance of winning it. Talk about being back in the CL for x number of years, going this far in the title race for the first time in over a decade. There aren't trophies handed out for nearlies I'm afraid. Would people talk about the Leicester side who almost did it in 2016 if they'd wobbled at the end - of course not. They could have said - we've made the CL, be grateful, beyond our wildest dreams etc - but instead they grabbed a once in a lifetime opportunity I suspect ours was this season but we will be more content in our safe haven as the Nearly men

The statement this season would have been to win the Europa League - a first European trophy in almost 30 years. A way to start ending a losers record in Europe.

I disagree that the new stadium was an 'excuse' for not winning titles from 2006-2013ish. At that point the club had to generate sales to keep things running so I don't think anyone really expected us to challenge for the league at that point. Where things started to go wrong was when we did start spending money on likes of Sanchez, Ozil etc and then not following it up. Expectations rose and Wenger couldn't match them at that point.

Arteta has definitely overachieved this season - everyone would have taken top 4 at the start. We definitely blew it the last 6 weeks and it hurst, but Arteta does deserve the opportunity to build the squad this summer. If we are out of the top 4 in a year then yeah, we should make a change. And just to be clear, I want us to challenge for titles and the CL, but it is very competitive with City, United, Chelsea and now likely Newcastle having bigger budgets than us. Thats a reality.

[SteveO 35]

Seen an interview on ssn with guy who runs Toffee FanTV who spoke about the erosion of values at everton in recent years to the point that chairman bill kenright lauds a top 10 finish and things like that and how that is not good enough - he spoke about everton in the 80s being built on a team with winners mentality and that is what they have to get back to, and of course we as Gooners can understand where he is coming from. As soon as you start to dilute/reduce what quantifies as success, then that is the day that your standing as a club starts to slide - we all agree that none of us expected to finish second or be in a title bid for as long as we were so from that point of view we have of course done well, but on the flip side we have just allowed a glorious chance to pass us by because we lack the backbone and winners mentality that was needed

The lowering of standards came from the minute Chavski pulled our pants down to the tune of 5k per week for Cashley Hole. Wenger became obsessed with the ludicrous FFP shite (how has that panned out 17 years later ), got totally schooled by Maureen every game and the new stadium became an excuse to accept 4th place as a trophy. The club has never recovered from that and I already sense from recent interviews and Arteta's presser yesterday that we are back there again- delighted to have qualified, not a cat in hell's chance of winning it. Talk about being back in the CL for x number of years, going this far in the title race for the first time in over a decade. There aren't trophies handed out for nearlies I'm afraid. Would people talk about the Leicester side who almost did it in 2016 if they'd wobbled at the end - of course not. They could have said - we've made the CL, be grateful, beyond our wildest dreams etc - but instead they grabbed a once in a lifetime opportunity I suspect ours was this season but we will be more content in our safe haven as the Nearly men

The statement this season would have been to win the Europa League - a first European trophy in almost 30 years. A way to start ending a losers record in Europe.

I disagree that the new stadium was an 'excuse' for not winning titles from 2006-2013ish. At that point the club had to generate sales to keep things running so I don't think anyone really expected us to challenge for the league at that point. Where things started to go wrong was when we did start spending money on likes of Sanchez, Ozil etc and then not following it up. Expectations rose and Wenger couldn't match them at that point.

Arteta has definitely overachieved this season - everyone would have taken top 4 at the start. We definitely blew it the last 6 weeks and it hurst, but Arteta does deserve the opportunity to build the squad this summer. If we are out of the top 4 in a year then yeah, we should make a change. And just to be clear, I want us to challenge for titles and the CL, but it is very competitive with City, United, Chelsea and now likely Newcastle having bigger budgets than us. Thats a reality.

Whether we agree on it being an excuse of not, that period defined what modern Arsenal was all about i.e. top four as a trophy. In the latter years, despite having significantly more financial muscle, it has still continued to be the philosophy of the club......so much so that Wenger even coined the phrase about top4 being a trophy.

Of course, we have no divine right to win the PL or CL - far from it.....and it will be extremely tough. My biggest criticism is that when opportunities arise, we fold.....and his players are currently showing the same traits as those from '08, '10, '13 and '16 - get yourself into a great position and then blow it through lack of leadership, and being physically weak. Seeing our defenders get bullied by Jack Fucking Grealish was the image I have of modern Arsenal. The old images I have are of Lauren grabbing Neville Jnr by the neck, Keown bullying Van Horseface, Adams and Bould knocking the shit out of strikers who tried to rough it up. Man City's key player yesterday wasn't Haaland - it was Kyle Walker, who stood tall and bailed them out for the first 35 minutes. We could easily choose to sign players of that ilk - but we don't.....and until we do, I remain to be convinced that this team will fare any better than those nearly men from past seasons.

[Retro Gunner]

Seen an interview on ssn with guy who runs Toffee FanTV who spoke about the erosion of values at everton in recent years to the point that chairman bill kenright lauds a top 10 finish and things like that and how that is not good enough - he spoke about everton in the 80s being built on a team with winners mentality and that is what they have to get back to, and of course we as Gooners can understand where he is coming from. As soon as you start to dilute/reduce what quantifies as success, then that is the day that your standing as a club starts to slide - we all agree that none of us expected to finish second or be in a title bid for as long as we were so from that point of view we have of course done well, but on the flip side we have just allowed a glorious chance to pass us by because we lack the backbone and winners mentality that was needed

The lowering of standards came from the minute Chavski pulled our pants down to the tune of 5k per week for Cashley Hole. Wenger became obsessed with the ludicrous FFP shite (how has that panned out 17 years later ), got totally schooled by Maureen every game and the new stadium became an excuse to accept 4th place as a trophy. The club has never recovered from that and I already sense from recent interviews and Arteta's presser yesterday that we are back there again- delighted to have qualified, not a cat in hell's chance of winning it. Talk about being back in the CL for x number of years, going this far in the title race for the first time in over a decade. There aren't trophies handed out for nearlies I'm afraid. Would people talk about the Leicester side who almost did it in 2016 if they'd wobbled at the end - of course not. They could have said - we've made the CL, be grateful, beyond our wildest dreams etc - but instead they grabbed a once in a lifetime opportunity I suspect ours was this season but we will be more content in our safe haven as the Nearly men

The statement this season would have been to win the Europa League - a first European trophy in almost 30 years. A way to start ending a losers record in Europe.

I disagree that the new stadium was an 'excuse' for not winning titles from 2006-2013ish. At that point the club had to generate sales to keep things running so I don't think anyone really expected us to challenge for the league at that point. Where things started to go wrong was when we did start spending money on likes of Sanchez, Ozil etc and then not following it up. Expectations rose and Wenger couldn't match them at that point.

Arteta has definitely overachieved this season - everyone would have taken top 4 at the start. We definitely blew it the last 6 weeks and it hurst, but Arteta does deserve the opportunity to build the squad this summer. If we are out of the top 4 in a year then yeah, we should make a change. And just to be clear, I want us to challenge for titles and the CL, but it is very competitive with City, United, Chelsea and now likely Newcastle having bigger budgets than us. Thats a reality.

Whether we agree on it being an excuse of not, that period defined what modern Arsenal was all about i.e. top four as a trophy. In the latter years, despite having significantly more financial muscle, it has still continued to be the philosophy of the club......so much so that Wenger even coined the phrase about top4 being a trophy.

Of course, we have no divine right to win the PL or CL - far from it.....and it will be extremely tough. My biggest criticism is that when opportunities arise, we fold.....and his players are currently showing the same traits as those from '08, '10, '13 and '16 - get yourself into a great position and then blow it through lack of leadership, and being physically weak. Seeing our defenders get bullied by Jack Fucking Grealish was the image I have of modern Arsenal. The old images I have are of Lauren grabbing Neville Jnr by the neck, Keown bullying Van Horseface, Adams and Bould knocking the shit out of strikers who tried to rough it up. Man City's key player yesterday wasn't Haaland - it was Kyle Walker, who stood tall and bailed them out for the first 35 minutes. We could easily choose to sign players of that ilk - but we don't.....and until we do, I remain to be convinced that this team will fare any better than those nearly men from past seasons.

I fear they this might well be right. Without doubt, Wenger started to kill the club from 2005/6 onwards and it has never recovered. The DNA of the club changed over his last 12 years and as abstract as that might sound, it’s bourne out in fact.

The classic example are the scum. They had a quality side and a quality manager under Pochettino, but still won fuck all, despite having opportunities. Conversely, Liverpool, even when the side isn’t great, will always punch above their weight and pull it out the bag. I’ve never been so gutted at a Cup Final as 2001 in Cardiff, where we murdered them and they mugged us at the end. Even more so, their CL win in Istanbul. They never know when they’re beaten.

We always had a dogged, tough, hard to best streak and so games we didn’t seem to dominate, which largely accounted for the lucky Arsenal tag. Well, that’s gone now and has been replaced with a DNA that makes us flaky and weak. Wenger made it acceptable to be the good footballing losers, the CL equivalent of how fucking West Ham used to be regarded in the old First Division. Nice to watch at times, but serial losers.

Once a character is established at a club, it’s very difficult to shift it. It was part of my not wanting Arteta as manager (the main reason was that he was a total novice), because he’s a Wenger acolyte, one of his boys. I kept saying it, but I’m sure Wenger is advising him...the end of this season suggests so anyway!

[augie]

Seen an interview on ssn with guy who runs Toffee FanTV who spoke about the erosion of values at everton in recent years to the point that chairman bill kenright lauds a top 10 finish and things like that and how that is not good enough - he spoke about everton in the 80s being built on a team with winners mentality and that is what they have to get back to, and of course we as Gooners can understand where he is coming from. As soon as you start to dilute/reduce what quantifies as success, then that is the day that your standing as a club starts to slide - we all agree that none of us expected to finish second or be in a title bid for as long as we were so from that point of view we have of course done well, but on the flip side we have just allowed a glorious chance to pass us by because we lack the backbone and winners mentality that was needed

The lowering of standards came from the minute Chavski pulled our pants down to the tune of 5k per week for Cashley Hole. Wenger became obsessed with the ludicrous FFP shite (how has that panned out 17 years later ), got totally schooled by Maureen every game and the new stadium became an excuse to accept 4th place as a trophy. The club has never recovered from that and I already sense from recent interviews and Arteta's presser yesterday that we are back there again- delighted to have qualified, not a cat in hell's chance of winning it. Talk about being back in the CL for x number of years, going this far in the title race for the first time in over a decade. There aren't trophies handed out for nearlies I'm afraid. Would people talk about the Leicester side who almost did it in 2016 if they'd wobbled at the end - of course not. They could have said - we've made the CL, be grateful, beyond our wildest dreams etc - but instead they grabbed a once in a lifetime opportunity I suspect ours was this season but we will be more content in our safe haven as the Nearly men

The statement this season would have been to win the Europa League - a first European trophy in almost 30 years. A way to start ending a losers record in Europe.

I disagree that the new stadium was an 'excuse' for not winning titles from 2006-2013ish. At that point the club had to generate sales to keep things running so I don't think anyone really expected us to challenge for the league at that point. Where things started to go wrong was when we did start spending money on likes of Sanchez, Ozil etc and then not following it up. Expectations rose and Wenger couldn't match them at that point.

Arteta has definitely overachieved this season - everyone would have taken top 4 at the start. We definitely blew it the last 6 weeks and it hurst, but Arteta does deserve the opportunity to build the squad this summer. If we are out of the top 4 in a year then yeah, we should make a change. And just to be clear, I want us to challenge for titles and the CL, but it is very competitive with City, United, Chelsea and now likely Newcastle having bigger budgets than us. Thats a reality.

Have we, Brighton, Villa and a few others overacheived, or have the victims, scum, chavs etc underachieved ? I think if we are honest here we will admit that it is mostly a case of other clubs having a shit season, and that allowed us to finish higher than expected

For most of this season we listened to tales of outstanding transfer business being done by arteta and edu - anyone still believe that ? Where are the outstanding successes ? For all the money spent since arteta's appointment, our key players are still players that were here before he took over (saliba, saka and martinelli) - other players have shown flashes here and there, but the likes of odeargod and jesus are not difference makers, and far too frequently go missing when needed most

The thing worrying me here is reading a lot of comments correctly stating that we need quality additions to kick on from here, and then be expected to trust a regime which has not done anything to suggest to me that they can identify and recruit the type of players needed. I never know with modern day AFC who is in charge of transfer business (buying and selling), but I think that we can take it as an absolute certainty that zinchenko and jesus were arteta chosen - both no doubt have some positive qualities, but again are they the type of players that are gonna lift us up a level or two needed to become winners ? Most of us know the answer to that question is no. I have long suggested that arteta cannot handle players with "personality/character" and surrounds himself with nice guys/yes men while he bombs out players who are opinionated or are perceived as troublesome - we will never win a league with a team of yes men and that is a fact. We all talk about the need for leaders in the team, but the type of players we talk about will challenge things if they dont agree with them, and that will never fly in an arteta world

[BobbyPires7]

Seen an interview on ssn with guy who runs Toffee FanTV who spoke about the erosion of values at everton in recent years to the point that chairman bill kenright lauds a top 10 finish and things like that and how that is not good enough - he spoke about everton in the 80s being built on a team with winners mentality and that is what they have to get back to, and of course we as Gooners can understand where he is coming from. As soon as you start to dilute/reduce what quantifies as success, then that is the day that your standing as a club starts to slide - we all agree that none of us expected to finish second or be in a title bid for as long as we were so from that point of view we have of course done well, but on the flip side we have just allowed a glorious chance to pass us by because we lack the backbone and winners mentality that was needed

The lowering of standards came from the minute Chavski pulled our pants down to the tune of 5k per week for Cashley Hole. Wenger became obsessed with the ludicrous FFP shite (how has that panned out 17 years later ), got totally schooled by Maureen every game and the new stadium became an excuse to accept 4th place as a trophy. The club has never recovered from that and I already sense from recent interviews and Arteta's presser yesterday that we are back there again- delighted to have qualified, not a cat in hell's chance of winning it. Talk about being back in the CL for x number of years, going this far in the title race for the first time in over a decade. There aren't trophies handed out for nearlies I'm afraid. Would people talk about the Leicester side who almost did it in 2016 if they'd wobbled at the end - of course not. They could have said - we've made the CL, be grateful, beyond our wildest dreams etc - but instead they grabbed a once in a lifetime opportunity I suspect ours was this season but we will be more content in our safe haven as the Nearly men

The statement this season would have been to win the Europa League - a first European trophy in almost 30 years. A way to start ending a losers record in Europe.

I disagree that the new stadium was an 'excuse' for not winning titles from 2006-2013ish. At that point the club had to generate sales to keep things running so I don't think anyone really expected us to challenge for the league at that point. Where things started to go wrong was when we did start spending money on likes of Sanchez, Ozil etc and then not following it up. Expectations rose and Wenger couldn't match them at that point.

Arteta has definitely overachieved this season - everyone would have taken top 4 at the start. We definitely blew it the last 6 weeks and it hurst, but Arteta does deserve the opportunity to build the squad this summer. If we are out of the top 4 in a year then yeah, we should make a change. And just to be clear, I want us to challenge for titles and the CL, but it is very competitive with City, United, Chelsea and now likely Newcastle having bigger budgets than us. Thats a reality.

Have we, Brighton, Villa and a few others overacheived, or have the victims, scum, chavs etc underachieved ? I think if we are honest here we will admit that it is mostly a case of other clubs having a shit season, and that allowed us to finish higher than expected

For most of this season we listened to tales of outstanding transfer business being done by arteta and edu - anyone still believe that ? Where are the outstanding successes ? For all the money spent since arteta's appointment, our key players are still players that were here before he took over (saliba, saka and martinelli) - other players have shown flashes here and there, but the likes of odeargod and jesus are not difference makers, and far too frequently go missing when needed most

The thing worrying me here is reading a lot of comments correctly stating that we need quality additions to kick on from here, and then be expected to trust a regime which has not done anything to suggest to me that they can identify and recruit the type of players needed. I never know with modern day AFC who is in charge of transfer business (buying and selling), but I think that we can take it as an absolute certainty that zinchenko and jesus were arteta chosen - both no doubt have some positive qualities, but again are they the type of players that are gonna lift us up a level or two needed to become winners ? Most of us know the answer to that question is no. I have long suggested that arteta cannot handle players with "personality/character" and surrounds himself with nice guys/yes men while he bombs out players who are opinionated or are perceived as troublesome - we will never win a league with a team of yes men and that is a fact. We all talk about the need for leaders in the team, but the type of players we talk about will challenge things if they dont agree with them, and that will never fly in an arteta world

Careful Augie. This level of realism will see you called a Spurs Wum by the resident short-arse.

[SteveO 35]

Seen an interview on ssn with guy who runs Toffee FanTV who spoke about the erosion of values at everton in recent years to the point that chairman bill kenright lauds a top 10 finish and things like that and how that is not good enough - he spoke about everton in the 80s being built on a team with winners mentality and that is what they have to get back to, and of course we as Gooners can understand where he is coming from. As soon as you start to dilute/reduce what quantifies as success, then that is the day that your standing as a club starts to slide - we all agree that none of us expected to finish second or be in a title bid for as long as we were so from that point of view we have of course done well, but on the flip side we have just allowed a glorious chance to pass us by because we lack the backbone and winners mentality that was needed

The lowering of standards came from the minute Chavski pulled our pants down to the tune of 5k per week for Cashley Hole. Wenger became obsessed with the ludicrous FFP shite (how has that panned out 17 years later ), got totally schooled by Maureen every game and the new stadium became an excuse to accept 4th place as a trophy. The club has never recovered from that and I already sense from recent interviews and Arteta's presser yesterday that we are back there again- delighted to have qualified, not a cat in hell's chance of winning it. Talk about being back in the CL for x number of years, going this far in the title race for the first time in over a decade. There aren't trophies handed out for nearlies I'm afraid. Would people talk about the Leicester side who almost did it in 2016 if they'd wobbled at the end - of course not. They could have said - we've made the CL, be grateful, beyond our wildest dreams etc - but instead they grabbed a once in a lifetime opportunity I suspect ours was this season but we will be more content in our safe haven as the Nearly men

The statement this season would have been to win the Europa League - a first European trophy in almost 30 years. A way to start ending a losers record in Europe.

I disagree that the new stadium was an 'excuse' for not winning titles from 2006-2013ish. At that point the club had to generate sales to keep things running so I don't think anyone really expected us to challenge for the league at that point. Where things started to go wrong was when we did start spending money on likes of Sanchez, Ozil etc and then not following it up. Expectations rose and Wenger couldn't match them at that point.

Arteta has definitely overachieved this season - everyone would have taken top 4 at the start. We definitely blew it the last 6 weeks and it hurst, but Arteta does deserve the opportunity to build the squad this summer. If we are out of the top 4 in a year then yeah, we should make a change. And just to be clear, I want us to challenge for titles and the CL, but it is very competitive with City, United, Chelsea and now likely Newcastle having bigger budgets than us. Thats a reality.

Have we, Brighton, Villa and a few others overacheived, or have the victims, scum, chavs etc underachieved ? I think if we are honest here we will admit that it is mostly a case of other clubs having a shit season, and that allowed us to finish higher than expected

For most of this season we listened to tales of outstanding transfer business being done by arteta and edu - anyone still believe that ? Where are the outstanding successes ? For all the money spent since arteta's appointment, our key players are still players that were here before he took over (saliba, saka and martinelli) - other players have shown flashes here and there, but the likes of odeargod and jesus are not difference makers, and far too frequently go missing when needed most

The thing worrying me here is reading a lot of comments correctly stating that we need quality additions to kick on from here, and then be expected to trust a regime which has not done anything to suggest to me that they can identify and recruit the type of players needed. I never know with modern day AFC who is in charge of transfer business (buying and selling), but I think that we can take it as an absolute certainty that zinchenko and jesus were arteta chosen - both no doubt have some positive qualities, but again are they the type of players that are gonna lift us up a level or two needed to become winners ? Most of us know the answer to that question is no. I have long suggested that arteta cannot handle players with "personality/character" and surrounds himself with nice guys/yes men while he bombs out players who are opinionated or are perceived as troublesome - we will never win a league with a team of yes men and that is a fact. We all talk about the need for leaders in the team, but the type of players we talk about will challenge things if they dont agree with them, and that will never fly in an arteta world

As I said elsewhere on here - he has spent £170m+ assembling a defence that consists of Tomiyasu, White, Kiwior, Zinchenko, Gabriel and Ramsdale.......a defence that has shipped more goals than Chelsea, 2 less than Villa and 3 less than Brentford........and which only Southampton have fewer home clean sheets than! Saliba is the stand out - the one he loaned out year after year (we'd already be in the CL if he hadn't left us exposed to Holding last season), and in more recent weeks the fans have cried out for Tierney over Zinchenko.

[fivetothree]

Seen an interview on ssn with guy who runs Toffee FanTV who spoke about the erosion of values at everton in recent years to the point that chairman bill kenright lauds a top 10 finish and things like that and how that is not good enough - he spoke about everton in the 80s being built on a team with winners mentality and that is what they have to get back to, and of course we as Gooners can understand where he is coming from. As soon as you start to dilute/reduce what quantifies as success, then that is the day that your standing as a club starts to slide - we all agree that none of us expected to finish second or be in a title bid for as long as we were so from that point of view we have of course done well, but on the flip side we have just allowed a glorious chance to pass us by because we lack the backbone and winners mentality that was needed

The lowering of standards came from the minute Chavski pulled our pants down to the tune of 5k per week for Cashley Hole. Wenger became obsessed with the ludicrous FFP shite (how has that panned out 17 years later ), got totally schooled by Maureen every game and the new stadium became an excuse to accept 4th place as a trophy. The club has never recovered from that and I already sense from recent interviews and Arteta's presser yesterday that we are back there again- delighted to have qualified, not a cat in hell's chance of winning it. Talk about being back in the CL for x number of years, going this far in the title race for the first time in over a decade. There aren't trophies handed out for nearlies I'm afraid. Would people talk about the Leicester side who almost did it in 2016 if they'd wobbled at the end - of course not. They could have said - we've made the CL, be grateful, beyond our wildest dreams etc - but instead they grabbed a once in a lifetime opportunity I suspect ours was this season but we will be more content in our safe haven as the Nearly men

The statement this season would have been to win the Europa League - a first European trophy in almost 30 years. A way to start ending a losers record in Europe.

I disagree that the new stadium was an 'excuse' for not winning titles from 2006-2013ish. At that point the club had to generate sales to keep things running so I don't think anyone really expected us to challenge for the league at that point. Where things started to go wrong was when we did start spending money on likes of Sanchez, Ozil etc and then not following it up. Expectations rose and Wenger couldn't match them at that point.

Arteta has definitely overachieved this season - everyone would have taken top 4 at the start. We definitely blew it the last 6 weeks and it hurst, but Arteta does deserve the opportunity to build the squad this summer. If we are out of the top 4 in a year then yeah, we should make a change. And just to be clear, I want us to challenge for titles and the CL, but it is very competitive with City, United, Chelsea and now likely Newcastle having bigger budgets than us. Thats a reality.

Have we, Brighton, Villa and a few others overacheived, or have the victims, scum, chavs etc underachieved ? I think if we are honest here we will admit that it is mostly a case of other clubs having a shit season, and that allowed us to finish higher than expected

For most of this season we listened to tales of outstanding transfer business being done by arteta and edu - anyone still believe that ? Where are the outstanding successes ? For all the money spent since arteta's appointment, our key players are still players that were here before he took over (saliba, saka and martinelli) - other players have shown flashes here and there, but the likes of odeargod and jesus are not difference makers, and far too frequently go missing when needed most

The thing worrying me here is reading a lot of comments correctly stating that we need quality additions to kick on from here, and then be expected to trust a regime which has not done anything to suggest to me that they can identify and recruit the type of players needed. I never know with modern day AFC who is in charge of transfer business (buying and selling), but I think that we can take it as an absolute certainty that zinchenko and jesus were arteta chosen - both no doubt have some positive qualities, but again are they the type of players that are gonna lift us up a level or two needed to become winners ? Most of us know the answer to that question is no. I have long suggested that arteta cannot handle players with "personality/character" and surrounds himself with nice guys/yes men while he bombs out players who are opinionated or are perceived as troublesome - we will never win a league with a team of yes men and that is a fact. We all talk about the need for leaders in the team, but the type of players we talk about will challenge things if they dont agree with them, and that will never fly in an arteta world

We could finish up with 87 points. The last time we got above that was 2004 - surely that shows the improvement rather than other teams being bad. Jesus and Zinchenko are serial winners so I would actually disagree with that.

[augie]

Seen an interview on ssn with guy who runs Toffee FanTV who spoke about the erosion of values at everton in recent years to the point that chairman bill kenright lauds a top 10 finish and things like that and how that is not good enough - he spoke about everton in the 80s being built on a team with winners mentality and that is what they have to get back to, and of course we as Gooners can understand where he is coming from. As soon as you start to dilute/reduce what quantifies as success, then that is the day that your standing as a club starts to slide - we all agree that none of us expected to finish second or be in a title bid for as long as we were so from that point of view we have of course done well, but on the flip side we have just allowed a glorious chance to pass us by because we lack the backbone and winners mentality that was needed

The lowering of standards came from the minute Chavski pulled our pants down to the tune of 5k per week for Cashley Hole. Wenger became obsessed with the ludicrous FFP shite (how has that panned out 17 years later ), got totally schooled by Maureen every game and the new stadium became an excuse to accept 4th place as a trophy. The club has never recovered from that and I already sense from recent interviews and Arteta's presser yesterday that we are back there again- delighted to have qualified, not a cat in hell's chance of winning it. Talk about being back in the CL for x number of years, going this far in the title race for the first time in over a decade. There aren't trophies handed out for nearlies I'm afraid. Would people talk about the Leicester side who almost did it in 2016 if they'd wobbled at the end - of course not. They could have said - we've made the CL, be grateful, beyond our wildest dreams etc - but instead they grabbed a once in a lifetime opportunity I suspect ours was this season but we will be more content in our safe haven as the Nearly men

The statement this season would have been to win the Europa League - a first European trophy in almost 30 years. A way to start ending a losers record in Europe.

I disagree that the new stadium was an 'excuse' for not winning titles from 2006-2013ish. At that point the club had to generate sales to keep things running so I don't think anyone really expected us to challenge for the league at that point. Where things started to go wrong was when we did start spending money on likes of Sanchez, Ozil etc and then not following it up. Expectations rose and Wenger couldn't match them at that point.

Arteta has definitely overachieved this season - everyone would have taken top 4 at the start. We definitely blew it the last 6 weeks and it hurst, but Arteta does deserve the opportunity to build the squad this summer. If we are out of the top 4 in a year then yeah, we should make a change. And just to be clear, I want us to challenge for titles and the CL, but it is very competitive with City, United, Chelsea and now likely Newcastle having bigger budgets than us. Thats a reality.

Have we, Brighton, Villa and a few others overacheived, or have the victims, scum, chavs etc underachieved ? I think if we are honest here we will admit that it is mostly a case of other clubs having a shit season, and that allowed us to finish higher than expected

For most of this season we listened to tales of outstanding transfer business being done by arteta and edu - anyone still believe that ? Where are the outstanding successes ? For all the money spent since arteta's appointment, our key players are still players that were here before he took over (saliba, saka and martinelli) - other players have shown flashes here and there, but the likes of odeargod and jesus are not difference makers, and far too frequently go missing when needed most

The thing worrying me here is reading a lot of comments correctly stating that we need quality additions to kick on from here, and then be expected to trust a regime which has not done anything to suggest to me that they can identify and recruit the type of players needed. I never know with modern day AFC who is in charge of transfer business (buying and selling), but I think that we can take it as an absolute certainty that zinchenko and jesus were arteta chosen - both no doubt have some positive qualities, but again are they the type of players that are gonna lift us up a level or two needed to become winners ? Most of us know the answer to that question is no. I have long suggested that arteta cannot handle players with "personality/character" and surrounds himself with nice guys/yes men while he bombs out players who are opinionated or are perceived as troublesome - we will never win a league with a team of yes men and that is a fact. We all talk about the need for leaders in the team, but the type of players we talk about will challenge things if they dont agree with them, and that will never fly in an arteta world

We could finish up with 87 points. The last time we got above that was 2004 - surely that shows the improvement rather than other teams being bad. Jesus and Zinchenko are serial winners so I would actually disagree with that.

You are basing that on them being bit part players at pep's city I take it ? Both have shit the bed in the last month for us - hardly the mindset of serial winners. Jesus is actually behind 1 goal a season richarlson in brazil squad - hardly a ringing endorsement is it ? If both players were as good as you claim, would pep have really sold them to another premier league club ?? You are clutching at straws

[Retro Gunner]

The lowering of standards came from the minute Chavski pulled our pants down to the tune of 5k per week for Cashley Hole. Wenger became obsessed with the ludicrous FFP shite (how has that panned out 17 years later ), got totally schooled by Maureen every game and the new stadium became an excuse to accept 4th place as a trophy. The club has never recovered from that and I already sense from recent interviews and Arteta's presser yesterday that we are back there again- delighted to have qualified, not a cat in hell's chance of winning it. Talk about being back in the CL for x number of years, going this far in the title race for the first time in over a decade. There aren't trophies handed out for nearlies I'm afraid. Would people talk about the Leicester side who almost did it in 2016 if they'd wobbled at the end - of course not. They could have said - we've made the CL, be grateful, beyond our wildest dreams etc - but instead they grabbed a once in a lifetime opportunity I suspect ours was this season but we will be more content in our safe haven as the Nearly men

The statement this season would have been to win the Europa League - a first European trophy in almost 30 years. A way to start ending a losers record in Europe.

I disagree that the new stadium was an 'excuse' for not winning titles from 2006-2013ish. At that point the club had to generate sales to keep things running so I don't think anyone really expected us to challenge for the league at that point. Where things started to go wrong was when we did start spending money on likes of Sanchez, Ozil etc and then not following it up. Expectations rose and Wenger couldn't match them at that point.

Arteta has definitely overachieved this season - everyone would have taken top 4 at the start. We definitely blew it the last 6 weeks and it hurst, but Arteta does deserve the opportunity to build the squad this summer. If we are out of the top 4 in a year then yeah, we should make a change. And just to be clear, I want us to challenge for titles and the CL, but it is very competitive with City, United, Chelsea and now likely Newcastle having bigger budgets than us. Thats a reality.

Have we, Brighton, Villa and a few others overacheived, or have the victims, scum, chavs etc underachieved ? I think if we are honest here we will admit that it is mostly a case of other clubs having a shit season, and that allowed us to finish higher than expected

For most of this season we listened to tales of outstanding transfer business being done by arteta and edu - anyone still believe that ? Where are the outstanding successes ? For all the money spent since arteta's appointment, our key players are still players that were here before he took over (saliba, saka and martinelli) - other players have shown flashes here and there, but the likes of odeargod and jesus are not difference makers, and far too frequently go missing when needed most

The thing worrying me here is reading a lot of comments correctly stating that we need quality additions to kick on from here, and then be expected to trust a regime which has not done anything to suggest to me that they can identify and recruit the type of players needed. I never know with modern day AFC who is in charge of transfer business (buying and selling), but I think that we can take it as an absolute certainty that zinchenko and jesus were arteta chosen - both no doubt have some positive qualities, but again are they the type of players that are gonna lift us up a level or two needed to become winners ? Most of us know the answer to that question is no. I have long suggested that arteta cannot handle players with "personality/character" and surrounds himself with nice guys/yes men while he bombs out players who are opinionated or are perceived as troublesome - we will never win a league with a team of yes men and that is a fact. We all talk about the need for leaders in the team, but the type of players we talk about will challenge things if they dont agree with them, and that will never fly in an arteta world

We could finish up with 87 points. The last time we got above that was 2004 - surely that shows the improvement rather than other teams being bad. Jesus and Zinchenko are serial winners so I would actually disagree with that.

You are basing that on them being bit part players at pep's city I take it ? Both have shit the bed in the last month for us - hardly the mindset of serial winners. Jesus is actually behind 1 goal a season richarlson in brazil squad - hardly a ringing endorsement is it ? If both players were as good as you claim, would pep have really sold them to another premier league club ?? You are clutching at straws

Also, while I don’t want to be too harsh on Arteta and the team, who have achieved far more than I expected this season, it’s somewhat counter intuitive to suggest that there’s no correlation between points total and the quality of other teams. Hard to remember when we last took 6 points off the scum and chavs, 4 off the scousers and 3 off the mancs. That’s 19 points off of 4 of the usual top 5 and every one of them a shadow of their usual selves.

You can only beat what’s in front of you and we have improved for sure, but we need some perspective before getting carried away. Even City have only really kicked into gear since Feb and what was the league aggregate against them...1-6 was it?

[DB10GOONER]

I disagree that the new stadium was an 'excuse' for not winning titles from 2006-2013ish. At that point the club had to generate sales to keep things running so I don't think anyone really expected us to challenge for the league at that point. Where things started to go wrong was when we did start spending money on likes of Sanchez, Ozil etc and then not following it up. Expectations rose and Wenger couldn't match them at that point.

Arteta has definitely overachieved this season - everyone would have taken top 4 at the start. We definitely blew it the last 6 weeks and it hurst, but Arteta does deserve the opportunity to build the squad this summer. If we are out of the top 4 in a year then yeah, we should make a change. And just to be clear, I want us to challenge for titles and the CL, but it is very competitive with City, United, Chelsea and now likely Newcastle having bigger budgets than us. Thats a reality.

Have we, Brighton, Villa and a few others overacheived, or have the victims, scum, chavs etc underachieved ? I think if we are honest here we will admit that it is mostly a case of other clubs having a shit season, and that allowed us to finish higher than expected

For most of this season we listened to tales of outstanding transfer business being done by arteta and edu - anyone still believe that ? Where are the outstanding successes ? For all the money spent since arteta's appointment, our key players are still players that were here before he took over (saliba, saka and martinelli) - other players have shown flashes here and there, but the likes of odeargod and jesus are not difference makers, and far too frequently go missing when needed most

The thing worrying me here is reading a lot of comments correctly stating that we need quality additions to kick on from here, and then be expected to trust a regime which has not done anything to suggest to me that they can identify and recruit the type of players needed. I never know with modern day AFC who is in charge of transfer business (buying and selling), but I think that we can take it as an absolute certainty that zinchenko and jesus were arteta chosen - both no doubt have some positive qualities, but again are they the type of players that are gonna lift us up a level or two needed to become winners ? Most of us know the answer to that question is no. I have long suggested that arteta cannot handle players with "personality/character" and surrounds himself with nice guys/yes men while he bombs out players who are opinionated or are perceived as troublesome - we will never win a league with a team of yes men and that is a fact. We all talk about the need for leaders in the team, but the type of players we talk about will challenge things if they dont agree with them, and that will never fly in an arteta world

We could finish up with 87 points. The last time we got above that was 2004 - surely that shows the improvement rather than other teams being bad. Jesus and Zinchenko are serial winners so I would actually disagree with that.

You are basing that on them being bit part players at pep's city I take it ? Both have shit the bed in the last month for us - hardly the mindset of serial winners. Jesus is actually behind 1 goal a season richarlson in brazil squad - hardly a ringing endorsement is it ? If both players were as good as you claim, would pep have really sold them to another premier league club ?? You are clutching at straws

Also, while I don’t want to be too harsh on Arteta and the team, who have achieved far more than I expected this season, it’s somewhat counter intuitive to suggest that there’s no correlation between points total and the quality of other teams. Hard to remember when we last took 6 points off the scum and chavs, 4 off the scousers and 3 off the mancs. That’s 19 points off of 4 of the usual top 5 and every one of them a shadow of their usual selves.

You can only beat what’s in front of you and we have improved for sure, but we need some perspective before getting carried away. Even City have only really kicked into gear since Feb and what was the league aggregate against them...1-6 was it?

^^ This x 100%.

I was hoping someone would respond with that to save me typing it.

Next season, after the other so called Big 6 clubs have strengthened and settled in new managers etc will be a better indicator of where we are as a team. Credit to Arteta, he has done much better this season than any of us expected, but to say that part of that wasn't the other big clubs being off form or going through various transitional stages is the thinking of someone with red tinted blinkers on.

People keep bringing up the points total. But the very reason our points total is so high this season is the fact we have beaten or drawn with teams that have beaten us every season over the last decade or more. And those teams have also been beaten far more often this season by the PL whipping boys and cannon fodder teams than in any season that I can remember. No shame in admitting the truth.

[fivetothree]

The lowering of standards came from the minute Chavski pulled our pants down to the tune of 5k per week for Cashley Hole. Wenger became obsessed with the ludicrous FFP shite (how has that panned out 17 years later ), got totally schooled by Maureen every game and the new stadium became an excuse to accept 4th place as a trophy. The club has never recovered from that and I already sense from recent interviews and Arteta's presser yesterday that we are back there again- delighted to have qualified, not a cat in hell's chance of winning it. Talk about being back in the CL for x number of years, going this far in the title race for the first time in over a decade. There aren't trophies handed out for nearlies I'm afraid. Would people talk about the Leicester side who almost did it in 2016 if they'd wobbled at the end - of course not. They could have said - we've made the CL, be grateful, beyond our wildest dreams etc - but instead they grabbed a once in a lifetime opportunity I suspect ours was this season but we will be more content in our safe haven as the Nearly men

The statement this season would have been to win the Europa League - a first European trophy in almost 30 years. A way to start ending a losers record in Europe.

I disagree that the new stadium was an 'excuse' for not winning titles from 2006-2013ish. At that point the club had to generate sales to keep things running so I don't think anyone really expected us to challenge for the league at that point. Where things started to go wrong was when we did start spending money on likes of Sanchez, Ozil etc and then not following it up. Expectations rose and Wenger couldn't match them at that point.

Arteta has definitely overachieved this season - everyone would have taken top 4 at the start. We definitely blew it the last 6 weeks and it hurst, but Arteta does deserve the opportunity to build the squad this summer. If we are out of the top 4 in a year then yeah, we should make a change. And just to be clear, I want us to challenge for titles and the CL, but it is very competitive with City, United, Chelsea and now likely Newcastle having bigger budgets than us. Thats a reality.

Have we, Brighton, Villa and a few others overacheived, or have the victims, scum, chavs etc underachieved ? I think if we are honest here we will admit that it is mostly a case of other clubs having a shit season, and that allowed us to finish higher than expected

For most of this season we listened to tales of outstanding transfer business being done by arteta and edu - anyone still believe that ? Where are the outstanding successes ? For all the money spent since arteta's appointment, our key players are still players that were here before he took over (saliba, saka and martinelli) - other players have shown flashes here and there, but the likes of odeargod and jesus are not difference makers, and far too frequently go missing when needed most

The thing worrying me here is reading a lot of comments correctly stating that we need quality additions to kick on from here, and then be expected to trust a regime which has not done anything to suggest to me that they can identify and recruit the type of players needed. I never know with modern day AFC who is in charge of transfer business (buying and selling), but I think that we can take it as an absolute certainty that zinchenko and jesus were arteta chosen - both no doubt have some positive qualities, but again are they the type of players that are gonna lift us up a level or two needed to become winners ? Most of us know the answer to that question is no. I have long suggested that arteta cannot handle players with "personality/character" and surrounds himself with nice guys/yes men while he bombs out players who are opinionated or are perceived as troublesome - we will never win a league with a team of yes men and that is a fact. We all talk about the need for leaders in the team, but the type of players we talk about will challenge things if they dont agree with them, and that will never fly in an arteta world

We could finish up with 87 points. The last time we got above that was 2004 - surely that shows the improvement rather than other teams being bad. Jesus and Zinchenko are serial winners so I would actually disagree with that.

You are basing that on them being bit part players at pep's city I take it ? Both have shit the bed in the last month for us - hardly the mindset of serial winners. Jesus is actually behind 1 goal a season richarlson in brazil squad - hardly a ringing endorsement is it ? If both players were as good as you claim, would pep have really sold them to another premier league club ?? You are clutching at straws

Bit part players at City get in our side. Sorry but that is a fact. Pep sold them as he had other defenders and brought in Alvarez. You haven't got a clue.

[fivetothree]

I disagree that the new stadium was an 'excuse' for not winning titles from 2006-2013ish. At that point the club had to generate sales to keep things running so I don't think anyone really expected us to challenge for the league at that point. Where things started to go wrong was when we did start spending money on likes of Sanchez, Ozil etc and then not following it up. Expectations rose and Wenger couldn't match them at that point.

Arteta has definitely overachieved this season - everyone would have taken top 4 at the start. We definitely blew it the last 6 weeks and it hurst, but Arteta does deserve the opportunity to build the squad this summer. If we are out of the top 4 in a year then yeah, we should make a change. And just to be clear, I want us to challenge for titles and the CL, but it is very competitive with City, United, Chelsea and now likely Newcastle having bigger budgets than us. Thats a reality.

Have we, Brighton, Villa and a few others overacheived, or have the victims, scum, chavs etc underachieved ? I think if we are honest here we will admit that it is mostly a case of other clubs having a shit season, and that allowed us to finish higher than expected

For most of this season we listened to tales of outstanding transfer business being done by arteta and edu - anyone still believe that ? Where are the outstanding successes ? For all the money spent since arteta's appointment, our key players are still players that were here before he took over (saliba, saka and martinelli) - other players have shown flashes here and there, but the likes of odeargod and jesus are not difference makers, and far too frequently go missing when needed most

The thing worrying me here is reading a lot of comments correctly stating that we need quality additions to kick on from here, and then be expected to trust a regime which has not done anything to suggest to me that they can identify and recruit the type of players needed. I never know with modern day AFC who is in charge of transfer business (buying and selling), but I think that we can take it as an absolute certainty that zinchenko and jesus were arteta chosen - both no doubt have some positive qualities, but again are they the type of players that are gonna lift us up a level or two needed to become winners ? Most of us know the answer to that question is no. I have long suggested that arteta cannot handle players with "personality/character" and surrounds himself with nice guys/yes men while he bombs out players who are opinionated or are perceived as troublesome - we will never win a league with a team of yes men and that is a fact. We all talk about the need for leaders in the team, but the type of players we talk about will challenge things if they dont agree with them, and that will never fly in an arteta world

We could finish up with 87 points. The last time we got above that was 2004 - surely that shows the improvement rather than other teams being bad. Jesus and Zinchenko are serial winners so I would actually disagree with that.

You are basing that on them being bit part players at pep's city I take it ? Both have shit the bed in the last month for us - hardly the mindset of serial winners. Jesus is actually behind 1 goal a season richarlson in brazil squad - hardly a ringing endorsement is it ? If both players were as good as you claim, would pep have really sold them to another premier league club ?? You are clutching at straws

Also, while I don’t want to be too harsh on Arteta and the team, who have achieved far more than I expected this season, it’s somewhat counter intuitive to suggest that there’s no correlation between points total and the quality of other teams. Hard to remember when we last took 6 points off the scum and chavs, 4 off the scousers and 3 off the mancs. That’s 19 points off of 4 of the usual top 5 and every one of them a shadow of their usual selves.

You can only beat what’s in front of you and we have improved for sure, but we need some perspective before getting carried away. Even City have only really kicked into gear since Feb and what was the league aggregate against them...1-6 was it?

We beat Man U at home when they were in good form. We beat Newcastle away and they have been flying.