Mikel Arteta, success or failure? - Merged thread.

[augie]

I disagree that the new stadium was an 'excuse' for not winning titles from 2006-2013ish. At that point the club had to generate sales to keep things running so I don't think anyone really expected us to challenge for the league at that point. Where things started to go wrong was when we did start spending money on likes of Sanchez, Ozil etc and then not following it up. Expectations rose and Wenger couldn't match them at that point.

Arteta has definitely overachieved this season - everyone would have taken top 4 at the start. We definitely blew it the last 6 weeks and it hurst, but Arteta does deserve the opportunity to build the squad this summer. If we are out of the top 4 in a year then yeah, we should make a change. And just to be clear, I want us to challenge for titles and the CL, but it is very competitive with City, United, Chelsea and now likely Newcastle having bigger budgets than us. Thats a reality.

Have we, Brighton, Villa and a few others overacheived, or have the victims, scum, chavs etc underachieved ? I think if we are honest here we will admit that it is mostly a case of other clubs having a shit season, and that allowed us to finish higher than expected

For most of this season we listened to tales of outstanding transfer business being done by arteta and edu - anyone still believe that ? Where are the outstanding successes ? For all the money spent since arteta's appointment, our key players are still players that were here before he took over (saliba, saka and martinelli) - other players have shown flashes here and there, but the likes of odeargod and jesus are not difference makers, and far too frequently go missing when needed most

The thing worrying me here is reading a lot of comments correctly stating that we need quality additions to kick on from here, and then be expected to trust a regime which has not done anything to suggest to me that they can identify and recruit the type of players needed. I never know with modern day AFC who is in charge of transfer business (buying and selling), but I think that we can take it as an absolute certainty that zinchenko and jesus were arteta chosen - both no doubt have some positive qualities, but again are they the type of players that are gonna lift us up a level or two needed to become winners ? Most of us know the answer to that question is no. I have long suggested that arteta cannot handle players with "personality/character" and surrounds himself with nice guys/yes men while he bombs out players who are opinionated or are perceived as troublesome - we will never win a league with a team of yes men and that is a fact. We all talk about the need for leaders in the team, but the type of players we talk about will challenge things if they dont agree with them, and that will never fly in an arteta world

We could finish up with 87 points. The last time we got above that was 2004 - surely that shows the improvement rather than other teams being bad. Jesus and Zinchenko are serial winners so I would actually disagree with that.

You are basing that on them being bit part players at pep's city I take it ? Both have shit the bed in the last month for us - hardly the mindset of serial winners. Jesus is actually behind 1 goal a season richarlson in brazil squad - hardly a ringing endorsement is it ? If both players were as good as you claim, would pep have really sold them to another premier league club ?? You are clutching at straws

Bit part players at City get in our side. Sorry but that is a fact. Pep sold them as he had other defenders and brought in Alvarez. You haven't got a clue.

If you are going to have a pop at me, at least show the intelligence to address the point I was making - you called jesus and zinchenko "serial winners", and I pointed out to you that there were bit part players in city's successes, and imo that doesnt quantify them as serial winners and last season they were your proverbial "fringe players" at city.

[Retro Gunner]

Have we, Brighton, Villa and a few others overacheived, or have the victims, scum, chavs etc underachieved ? I think if we are honest here we will admit that it is mostly a case of other clubs having a shit season, and that allowed us to finish higher than expected

For most of this season we listened to tales of outstanding transfer business being done by arteta and edu - anyone still believe that ? Where are the outstanding successes ? For all the money spent since arteta's appointment, our key players are still players that were here before he took over (saliba, saka and martinelli) - other players have shown flashes here and there, but the likes of odeargod and jesus are not difference makers, and far too frequently go missing when needed most

The thing worrying me here is reading a lot of comments correctly stating that we need quality additions to kick on from here, and then be expected to trust a regime which has not done anything to suggest to me that they can identify and recruit the type of players needed. I never know with modern day AFC who is in charge of transfer business (buying and selling), but I think that we can take it as an absolute certainty that zinchenko and jesus were arteta chosen - both no doubt have some positive qualities, but again are they the type of players that are gonna lift us up a level or two needed to become winners ? Most of us know the answer to that question is no. I have long suggested that arteta cannot handle players with "personality/character" and surrounds himself with nice guys/yes men while he bombs out players who are opinionated or are perceived as troublesome - we will never win a league with a team of yes men and that is a fact. We all talk about the need for leaders in the team, but the type of players we talk about will challenge things if they dont agree with them, and that will never fly in an arteta world

We could finish up with 87 points. The last time we got above that was 2004 - surely that shows the improvement rather than other teams being bad. Jesus and Zinchenko are serial winners so I would actually disagree with that.

You are basing that on them being bit part players at pep's city I take it ? Both have shit the bed in the last month for us - hardly the mindset of serial winners. Jesus is actually behind 1 goal a season richarlson in brazil squad - hardly a ringing endorsement is it ? If both players were as good as you claim, would pep have really sold them to another premier league club ?? You are clutching at straws

Also, while I don’t want to be too harsh on Arteta and the team, who have achieved far more than I expected this season, it’s somewhat counter intuitive to suggest that there’s no correlation between points total and the quality of other teams. Hard to remember when we last took 6 points off the scum and chavs, 4 off the scousers and 3 off the mancs. That’s 19 points off of 4 of the usual top 5 and every one of them a shadow of their usual selves.

You can only beat what’s in front of you and we have improved for sure, but we need some perspective before getting carried away. Even City have only really kicked into gear since Feb and what was the league aggregate against them...1-6 was it?

We beat Man U at home when they were in good form. We beat Newcastle away and they have been flying.

Blimey mate, no one is saying we haven't performed well this season and certainly way better than any of us imagined, but you need to keep some sensible perspective. As DB said, there's no shame in admitting that apart from City, the other usual suspects were way below par, That's a fact borne out by their points totals if you like, although watching them play is enough.

As for Utd, they haven't played particularly well all season, despite getting reasonable results, so beating them wasn't quite the achievement you might think, but still a good performance. Beating Newcastle away was a cracking result, because they were indeed flying. The point is, no one is looking to deny we've done well and had some very good performances, but let's keep our feet on the ground. Again, as DB said, next season, when those other big boys are sure to improve, we'll be able to better evaluate where we are.

[fivetothree]

Have we, Brighton, Villa and a few others overacheived, or have the victims, scum, chavs etc underachieved ? I think if we are honest here we will admit that it is mostly a case of other clubs having a shit season, and that allowed us to finish higher than expected

For most of this season we listened to tales of outstanding transfer business being done by arteta and edu - anyone still believe that ? Where are the outstanding successes ? For all the money spent since arteta's appointment, our key players are still players that were here before he took over (saliba, saka and martinelli) - other players have shown flashes here and there, but the likes of odeargod and jesus are not difference makers, and far too frequently go missing when needed most

The thing worrying me here is reading a lot of comments correctly stating that we need quality additions to kick on from here, and then be expected to trust a regime which has not done anything to suggest to me that they can identify and recruit the type of players needed. I never know with modern day AFC who is in charge of transfer business (buying and selling), but I think that we can take it as an absolute certainty that zinchenko and jesus were arteta chosen - both no doubt have some positive qualities, but again are they the type of players that are gonna lift us up a level or two needed to become winners ? Most of us know the answer to that question is no. I have long suggested that arteta cannot handle players with "personality/character" and surrounds himself with nice guys/yes men while he bombs out players who are opinionated or are perceived as troublesome - we will never win a league with a team of yes men and that is a fact. We all talk about the need for leaders in the team, but the type of players we talk about will challenge things if they dont agree with them, and that will never fly in an arteta world

We could finish up with 87 points. The last time we got above that was 2004 - surely that shows the improvement rather than other teams being bad. Jesus and Zinchenko are serial winners so I would actually disagree with that.

You are basing that on them being bit part players at pep's city I take it ? Both have shit the bed in the last month for us - hardly the mindset of serial winners. Jesus is actually behind 1 goal a season richarlson in brazil squad - hardly a ringing endorsement is it ? If both players were as good as you claim, would pep have really sold them to another premier league club ?? You are clutching at straws

Bit part players at City get in our side. Sorry but that is a fact. Pep sold them as he had other defenders and brought in Alvarez. You haven't got a clue.

If you are going to have a pop at me, at least show the intelligence to address the point I was making - you called jesus and zinchenko "serial winners", and I pointed out to you that there were bit part players in city's successes, and imo that doesnt quantify them as serial winners and last season they were your proverbial "fringe players" at city.

Jesus played 159 games in 5 years at City. Hardly a 'fringe player' is he?

Zinchenko possibly, but he was a victim of Pep roulette as well.

[Retro Gunner]

We could finish up with 87 points. The last time we got above that was 2004 - surely that shows the improvement rather than other teams being bad. Jesus and Zinchenko are serial winners so I would actually disagree with that.

You are basing that on them being bit part players at pep's city I take it ? Both have shit the bed in the last month for us - hardly the mindset of serial winners. Jesus is actually behind 1 goal a season richarlson in brazil squad - hardly a ringing endorsement is it ? If both players were as good as you claim, would pep have really sold them to another premier league club ?? You are clutching at straws

Bit part players at City get in our side. Sorry but that is a fact. Pep sold them as he had other defenders and brought in Alvarez. You haven't got a clue.

If you are going to have a pop at me, at least show the intelligence to address the point I was making - you called jesus and zinchenko "serial winners", and I pointed out to you that there were bit part players in city's successes, and imo that doesnt quantify them as serial winners and last season they were your proverbial "fringe players" at city.

Jesus played 159 games in 5 years at City. Hardly a 'fringe player' is he?

Zinchenko possibly, but he was a victim of Pep roulette as well.

Genuine question....how many of those 159 were substitute appearances? I'd suspect quite a few.

[fivetothree]

You are basing that on them being bit part players at pep's city I take it ? Both have shit the bed in the last month for us - hardly the mindset of serial winners. Jesus is actually behind 1 goal a season richarlson in brazil squad - hardly a ringing endorsement is it ? If both players were as good as you claim, would pep have really sold them to another premier league club ?? You are clutching at straws

Bit part players at City get in our side. Sorry but that is a fact. Pep sold them as he had other defenders and brought in Alvarez. You haven't got a clue.

If you are going to have a pop at me, at least show the intelligence to address the point I was making - you called jesus and zinchenko "serial winners", and I pointed out to you that there were bit part players in city's successes, and imo that doesnt quantify them as serial winners and last season they were your proverbial "fringe players" at city.

Jesus played 159 games in 5 years at City. Hardly a 'fringe player' is he?

Zinchenko possibly, but he was a victim of Pep roulette as well.

Genuine question....how many of those 159 were substitute appearances? I'd suspect quite a few.

Ok so in all competitions he played 236 times for City. He started 151 of those and 85 were as a sub. That is more than a bit part player surely.

[Retro Gunner]

Bit part players at City get in our side. Sorry but that is a fact. Pep sold them as he had other defenders and brought in Alvarez. You haven't got a clue.

If you are going to have a pop at me, at least show the intelligence to address the point I was making - you called jesus and zinchenko "serial winners", and I pointed out to you that there were bit part players in city's successes, and imo that doesnt quantify them as serial winners and last season they were your proverbial "fringe players" at city.

Jesus played 159 games in 5 years at City. Hardly a 'fringe player' is he?

Zinchenko possibly, but he was a victim of Pep roulette as well.

Genuine question....how many of those 159 were substitute appearances? I'd suspect quite a few.

Ok so in all competitions he played 236 times for City. He started 151 of those and 85 were as a sub. That is more than a bit part player surely.

I’m surprised at those stats and I’d have to agree that it constitutes more than a bit part player. Mind you, Augie was referring to last season and may well be right that Jesus didn’t feature much in that campaign, but I don’t know.

What I would say is that I never had the feeling that Pep was convinced that Jesus was the answer, which is borne out by the fact he sold him. I never wanted him at our place, because we desperately need a proper goalscoring striker, a 20+ league goals a season man and Jesus will never be that. I said the same thing when we signed him. He’s far from clinical and misses more than he converts and was the same at City, where chances come far more frequently than at our place.

He’s a good footballer and can cause panic in opposition defences, but he’s not a proper goal scoring centre forward and that is the thing we need.

[OneBardGooner]

I think he would be good as a (roaming) No10, as you say he causes panic in the opposition because he has 'skills', but we so desperately Need a Proper Striker.

I thought / hoped we might go for Ivan Toney last Summer, mind you that was before the Betting thing hit the news.


Not sure who we can go in for, but priorities have to be:

Striker

Left Back

Midfield Defender/Marshall

C.Back

And another Left Winger


Not sure about Kiwior after his antics against Brighton I think he is like ElNeny a bit part squad player but not a proper replacement for anyone.

[fivetothree]

If you are going to have a pop at me, at least show the intelligence to address the point I was making - you called jesus and zinchenko "serial winners", and I pointed out to you that there were bit part players in city's successes, and imo that doesnt quantify them as serial winners and last season they were your proverbial "fringe players" at city.

Jesus played 159 games in 5 years at City. Hardly a 'fringe player' is he?

Zinchenko possibly, but he was a victim of Pep roulette as well.

Genuine question....how many of those 159 were substitute appearances? I'd suspect quite a few.

Ok so in all competitions he played 236 times for City. He started 151 of those and 85 were as a sub. That is more than a bit part player surely.

I’m surprised at those stats and I’d have to agree that it constitutes more than a bit part player. Mind you, Augie was referring to last season and may well be right that Jesus didn’t feature much in that campaign, but I don’t know.

What I would say is that I never had the feeling that Pep was convinced that Jesus was the answer, which is borne out by the fact he sold him. I never wanted him at our place, because we desperately need a proper goalscoring striker, a 20+ league goals a season man and Jesus will never be that. I said the same thing when we signed him. He’s far from clinical and misses more than he converts and was the same at City, where chances come far more frequently than at our place.

He’s a good footballer and can cause panic in opposition defences, but he’s not a proper goal scoring centre forward and that is the thing we need.

I agree he is not a 20+ a season striker. I think he was bought to fit into Arteta's style of play, he can certainly press in a way that Laca didn't.

[fivetothree]

I think he would be good as a (roaming) No10, as you say he causes panic in the opposition because he has 'skills', but we so desperately Need a Proper Striker.

I thought / hoped we might go for Ivan Toney last Summer, mind you that was before the Betting thing hit the news.


Not sure who we can go in for, but priorities have to be:

Striker

Left Back

Midfield Defender/Marshall

C.Back

And another Left Winger


Not sure about Kiwior after his antics against Brighton I think he is like ElNeny a bit part squad player but not a proper replacement for anyone.

Surely we need a right winger rather than a left winger? Martinelli and Trossard are both fine on the left, but Nelson is too much of a drop when Saka isn't playing. If we had had a solid RW option I think Saka would have been benched for a bit recently.

In fairness, before the Brighton game Kiwior had looked good. He is young and didn't cost a lot so worth having. We definitely need a quality CB though.

Who should go? For me:-

Holding
Cedric
Pepe
Mari
Tierney (if we get a good offer)
ESR (same)
Partey or Xhaka
Balagun (£30m+ we should accept)
AMN
Nelson

Thoughts?

[Retro Gunner]

I think he would be good as a (roaming) No10, as you say he causes panic in the opposition because he has 'skills', but we so desperately Need a Proper Striker.

I thought / hoped we might go for Ivan Toney last Summer, mind you that was before the Betting thing hit the news.


Not sure who we can go in for, but priorities have to be:

Striker

Left Back

Midfield Defender/Marshall

C.Back

And another Left Winger


Not sure about Kiwior after his antics against Brighton I think he is like ElNeny a bit part squad player but not a proper replacement for anyone.

Surely we need a right winger rather than a left winger? Martinelli and Trossard are both fine on the left, but Nelson is too much of a drop when Saka isn't playing. If we had had a solid RW option I think Saka would have been benched for a bit recently.

In fairness, before the Brighton game Kiwior had looked good. He is young and didn't cost a lot so worth having. We definitely need a quality CB though.

Who should go? For me:-

Holding
Cedric
Pepe
Mari
Tierney (if we get a good offer)
ESR (same)
Partey or Xhaka
Balagun (£30m+ we should accept)
AMN
Nelson

Thoughts?

Blimey, you look at that list and realise there are players you'd forgotten all about that are still on the books.

I'd be gutted to see ESR go, as I think he's a serious talent and 18 months ago looked our brightest prospect, but I don't think he figures too highly in Arteta's plans, so I'd encourage him to go and build a career elsewhere.

I would also be disappointed to see Tierney go, as he's a proper defender and I'd play him at left back and move Zinchenko (who most definitely is NOT a proper defender) into midfield. Some on here, like Clummo, believe...probably quite rightly...that Arteta wants that fluid, roaming full back role, but we don't have the quality of players to make that work. We might score goals, but we'll concede plenty. Arteta needs to get a proper grip on the centre midfield and recruit some top quality in there if he thinks he can emulate Pep. With Partey, Xhaka, Vieira, Albert and Elneny, none of whom would get beyond sweeping the dressing room at City, as our midfield anchors, we need proper defensive fullbacks.

I'd agree to waving all the rest goodbye without a second thought.

[OneBardGooner]

I know when you actually see the list of players we have on the books who are of no use, hopefully we can off-load enough of them and put those funds towards bringing in the players we do need.


Yes, I hope ESR is given a chance, for me he has Huge Potential and is a damn fine player.... When he has been given a few minutes because of being game rusty he hasn't been doing what we have ll seen in the past. I truly hope he does stay (providing he is given game time and of course if he wants to stay).

[Retro Gunner]

I know when you actually see the list of players we have on the books who are of no use, hopefully we can off-load enough of them and put those funds towards bringing in the players we do need.


Yes, I hope ESR is given a chance, for me he has Huge Potential and is a damn fine player.... When he has been given a few minutes because of being game rusty he hasn't been doing what we have ll seen in the past. I truly hope he does stay (providing he is given game time and of course if he wants to stay).

Yep, agreed. He needs a run of games. No one can have a long lay off like that and then make an impact when given 10 or 15 minutes every now and then.

[gooner265]

Apparently Arteta is setcto have talks with him at the end of the season .He doesn't look fit though but may be a get your head down chat or we'll let you go, I know hes had diet issues but I'll be gutted if he goes .

It was the same with Stewart Robson , Ioived him but there was obviously an attitude problem and GG shipped him out.

[OneBardGooner]

Don't know if there's any truth in the 'gossip' that he is struggling with his diet, thing is when off long term due to an injury, it can be very easy to fall out of one's routine (including intake of what foods, supplements etc) and he is said to have put on more weight than they might normally expect.

If that is an issue they'll have the right people in place to advise and coach him.

He has Huge Potential so I hope it works out and that he can stay & play.

[SteveO 35]

The most positive thing to come out of his press conference this morning was the full on honesty that this squad isn't equipped for the dual challenge of PL and CL next season. Thought he might try and bluff that, but fair play to the bloke he said "no, because we weren't ready to do that in the Europa League"

I sincerely hope this means that the reality or needing a minimum of 5 players has been a proper discussion and that we get business done early doors.

Much as I'll be partying for weeks when the dopey Swiss turd gets flushed down the bog, that leaves Partey (flaky), Jorginho (good leader and good for 20 odd games), Elneny (honest and industrious but severely limited) and Lokonga (never in a month of Sundays)

No proper right back - unless you don't mind one who can't tackle, pass or cross and is worth a goal start to the opposition.

Non scoring Jesus, and a cluster ot CBs that fold quicker than a deck chair when Saliba isn't there

Major major work to be done. Glad he recognises it