Mikel Arteta, success or failure? - Merged thread.

[Bob Bayliss]

All this "he is going absolutely nowhere" stuff is why we are a study in failure as a football club, and have been for 20 years.

Arsenal never indulged failing managers until the cult of Wenger. Bertie Mee had won us the double and our first european trophy, yet after two poor seasons he was gone. Terry Neill had brought us an FA Cup and three finals in a row as well as a european final but didn't last long once we started to become mediocre in the early 80s; When it was clear Don Howe couldn't cut it as a top-level manager he too was gone, despite his contribution as an elite coach; and while George Graham was ostensibly sacked for taking "bungs", he was by that time presiding over a team who were relying on spirited cup performances and a strong defence to mask stagnation in league form. If he'd been caught three years earlier he'd have been given a rap over the knuckles, not sacked.

Why does the modern club indulge its failing managers to the extent we do? I don't want us to become like Chelsea who sack managers like they are going out of fashion, but if we had any genuine pride or ambition Arteta would be gone by now just as Wenger would have been gone by 2010. At least Wenger had credit in the bank, even though it had long since run out!

[OneBardGooner]

Also we have owners who as long as a Profit is being made & maintained they will just sit back and count the coffers. Plus of course the Very Reason so many rich owners (especially foreigners) are buying up Prem Clubs is because it is "Easy Money"...

We the Fans are 'Addicted' to football; more precisely to our chosen club. I would say ALL Fans have been following & supporting their Club / team since early childhood, it is in our Blood... It is akin to a life long Love Affair... The times I wanted to walk away in the last 10 years of Wenkers reign are countless, but I just couldn't - More Fool Me!

So when they buy a club they "know" without any uncertainty that their 'Customers' (the fans) will just keep the Cash Cow growing fatter season on season regardless. And now of course all the clubs (particularly) the top 8 - 10 in the Prem have a growing percentage of Tourists.. who not only are willing to pay extortionate prices for their Match Day Experience, but will spend a small fortune on the "Merchandise".

As soon as a long time Gooner decides they have had enough and give up their Season Ticket (Gold / Silver membership) there's a fucking Big Queue waiting to buy it. (*)

It took me some time to arrive at this as I kept hoping (beyond hope) that Arteta just might pull it off and lead us back to being Champions. The way that he re-united the fan-base so quickly after Wenker more or less destroyed it made me think 'Perhaps he can do it!".

But his arrogance (and in-experience) is becoming more and more obvious to see each week, so regrettably I think his time IS Done.

The thing is the Owners are going Nowhere.
The owners knwo fuck-all about British Football; its fans and traditions etc etc They think they do because they are very astute Business People...and so they will NOT act till the situation becomes dire... and there are "Protests" Calling for Arteta to Go. Just as there were for Wenker. But now the genuine/long time fans are faced with the added factor of (*) Tourists and Those whose knowledge of Football and the Club has been gleamed fro watching the likes of AFTV.

So as much as I think this needs to be his last season (I don't have a Clue who would / could replace him Right Now!) I don't see him going anywhere for at least 3 seasons... I Hope I am Wrong...

[Retro Gunner]

Also we have owners who as long as a Profit is being made & maintained they will just sit back and count the coffers. Plus of course the Very Reason so many rich owners (especially foreigners) are buying up Prem Clubs is because it is "Easy Money"...

We the Fans are 'Addicted' to football; more precisely to our chosen club. I would say ALL Fans have been following & supporting their Club / team since early childhood, it is in our Blood... It is akin to a life long Love Affair... The times I wanted to walk away in the last 10 years of Wenkers reign are countless, but I just couldn't - More Fool Me!

So when they buy a club they "know" without any uncertainty that their 'Customers' (the fans) will just keep the Cash Cow growing fatter season on season regardless. And now of course all the clubs (particularly) the top 8 - 10 in the Prem have a growing percentage of Tourists.. who not only are willing to pay extortionate prices for their Match Day Experience, but will spend a small fortune on the "Merchandise".

As soon as a long time Gooner decides they have had enough and give up their Season Ticket (Gold / Silver membership) there's a fucking Big Queue waiting to buy it. (*)

It took me some time to arrive at this as I kept hoping (beyond hope) that Arteta just might pull it off and lead us back to being Champions. The way that he re-united the fan-base so quickly after Wenker more or less destroyed it made me think 'Perhaps he can do it!".

But his arrogance (and in-experience) is becoming more and more obvious to see each week, so regrettably I think his time IS Done.

The thing is the Owners are going Nowhere.
The owners knwo fuck-all about British Football; its fans and traditions etc etc They think they do because they are very astute Business People...and so they will NOT act till the situation becomes dire... and there are "Protests" Calling for Arteta to Go. Just as there were for Wenker. But now the genuine/long time fans are faced with the added factor of (*) Tourists and Those whose knowledge of Football and the Club has been gleamed fro watching the likes of AFTV.

So as much as I think this needs to be his last season (I don't have a Clue who would / could replace him Right Now!) I don't see him going anywhere for at least 3 seasons... I Hope I am Wrong...

Good post OB. The part about the owners (and indeed all the senior management) knowing fuck all about the game is very pertinent and occurs to me frequently. Wenger was able to blag his way through for over 10 years because no one had enough of a clue to question his comments or his performance and that's the fear with Mkll.

[Retro Gunner]

All this "he is going absolutely nowhere" stuff is why we are a study in failure as a football club, and have been for 20 years.

Arsenal never indulged failing managers until the cult of Wenger. Bertie Mee had won us the double and our first european trophy, yet after two poor seasons he was gone. Terry Neill had brought us an FA Cup and three finals in a row as well as a european final but didn't last long once we started to become mediocre in the early 80s; When it was clear Don Howe couldn't cut it as a top-level manager he too was gone, despite his contribution as an elite coach; and while George Graham was ostensibly sacked for taking "bungs", he was by that time presiding over a team who were relying on spirited cup performances and a strong defence to mask stagnation in league form. If he'd been caught three years earlier he'd have been given a rap over the knuckles, not sacked.

Why does the modern club indulge its failing managers to the extent we do? I don't want us to become like Chelsea who sack managers like they are going out of fashion, but if we had any genuine pride or ambition Arteta would be gone by now just as Wenger would have been gone by 2010. At least Wenger had credit in the bank, even though it had long since run out!

I agree with this Bob, although we've rarely pulled the trigger quite as fast as we shoud have, but about the part in red....I'd swap Chelsea's trophy haul in the last 20 yrs for ours. Frequent sackings seem distasteful and don't sit comfortably with me, but take that job and you know that you better perform quickly. Sad to say, it's done them no harm. The only dismissal I couldn't fathom was Ancelotti, but it shows how ruthless they were/are.

[Bob Bayliss]

All this "he is going absolutely nowhere" stuff is why we are a study in failure as a football club, and have been for 20 years.

Arsenal never indulged failing managers until the cult of Wenger. Bertie Mee had won us the double and our first european trophy, yet after two poor seasons he was gone. Terry Neill had brought us an FA Cup and three finals in a row as well as a european final but didn't last long once we started to become mediocre in the early 80s; When it was clear Don Howe couldn't cut it as a top-level manager he too was gone, despite his contribution as an elite coach; and while George Graham was ostensibly sacked for taking "bungs", he was by that time presiding over a team who were relying on spirited cup performances and a strong defence to mask stagnation in league form. If he'd been caught three years earlier he'd have been given a rap over the knuckles, not sacked.

Why does the modern club indulge its failing managers to the extent we do? I don't want us to become like Chelsea who sack managers like they are going out of fashion, but if we had any genuine pride or ambition Arteta would be gone by now just as Wenger would have been gone by 2010. At least Wenger had credit in the bank, even though it had long since run out!

I agree with this Bob, although we've rarely pulled the trigger quite as fast as we shoud have, but about the part in red....I'd swap Chelsea's trophy haul in the last 20 yrs for ours. Frequent sackings seem distasteful and don't sit comfortably with me, but take that job and you know that you better perform quickly. Sad to say, it's done them no harm. The only dismissal I couldn't fathom was Ancelotti, but it shows how ruthless they were/are.

The funniest one was sacking Di Matteo, six months after he'd won them the bloody Champions' League by beating Barcelona and Bayern (on pens). They replaced him with the fat spanish waiter Benitez, who lasted all of six months until Mourinho was brought back for another spin.

[Perryashburtongroves]

OB and Retro, both spot on as always. We are at a real crossroads moment now and to be honest, we were there this time last year too until a fantastic run of form got us within touching distance of the title. Having said that, we are at exactly the same spot that the dippers and chavs were in before they got their acts together and realised that they had to make managerial changes to get in blokes that had won titles and knew how to get the job done. I've put Arteta in the Brendan Rodgers, Chavs era Claudio Ranieri bracket for a while now in that he's had a go at managing a big club but has no history of ever winning a title as a manager. When it comes to it, like the other two, unless you've done it, you don't know what it takes and when it matters, you're going to be coming up short. Arteta's had his Rodgers 2014 season, pushing Cheaty all the way but coming up short and he's done his Ranieri thing of getting a club competing again but never really threatening to get over the line in first place. I suppose the point I'm making is that, like the other two, he's reached his ceiling and won't be able to take the team any further, higher or whatever; the players seem to know that too and you need someone with a title or two behind them to convince them that you know what you're doing. The dippers and Chavs saw Trampy and Maureen and couldn't wait to pull the trigger. It had the necessary effect and whilst I can't stand the sight of either of them, they got the league title won and their clubs competing at the top of the table more often that not.
That's what we need now, we need to be a bit ruthless and realistic and the club has to say we're ready to move on. Thanks, Mikel for what you've done, you've put us back in the mix but we're not convinced you're the man to take us further. Like OB says, I can't think of many names that would be an option now but we need someone who knows what it takes to win a title in a proper league with demanding supporters. As mush as I hate to say it but Slott at the dippers knows what it's like to win the league with a club who have high expectations and in a physical, tough league. Same with Maureen and Klopp. Both had come from decent leagues at clubs who demand success and want to see their team winning things. That mentality and experience then drove both their next clubs forward because when they got close, they knew how to get it done. When you're sitting on the bench as an assistant coach at the richest club in the world next to your mate, you don't have any accountability or fear of coming up short. His views might have been sought every now and again but when it came to results or transfers or contracts, he wasn't in there, he wasn't making the big decisions. At the end of the day, we're seeing that now, we're seeing the lack of experience both on the pitch and in the transfer market; he's built a squad and yes, improved it considerably from the mess Wanker left behind but that squad has come to the end of a cycle and he's not the man to re-energise it and improve it. If you can't see you need a goal scorer for two years or more, what does that tell us?
Like I say, this is the crossroads. We can either go right back down the Wanker route and keep ignoring the warning signs and indulging the 'nearly there' but still failing line until it drives us all apart as a supporter base again or we can show some ambition, show we mean business and will demand success and replace him at the end of the season. He is an OK manager and could do a decent job at an Athetic Bilbao or a Marseille but it's just not going to happen with us and that's all I care about, really. I don't give a shit any more about 'style of play' or being taken on a 'journey'. I want fucking trophies because that's the whole fucking point of the game.
I'm not that good on things outside of Arsenal but if I had to name a name, I would start seeking out how Xabi Alonso at Leverkusen and see if he's at all interested. League winner at a top league and knows the Premiership. Might be worth asking the question.

[Arsenal Till I Die]

All this "he is going absolutely nowhere" stuff is why we are a study in failure as a football club, and have been for 20 years.

Arsenal never indulged failing managers until the cult of Wenger. Bertie Mee had won us the double and our first european trophy, yet after two poor seasons he was gone. Terry Neill had brought us an FA Cup and three finals in a row as well as a european final but didn't last long once we started to become mediocre in the early 80s; When it was clear Don Howe couldn't cut it as a top-level manager he too was gone, despite his contribution as an elite coach; and while George Graham was ostensibly sacked for taking "bungs", he was by that time presiding over a team who were relying on spirited cup performances and a strong defence to mask stagnation in league form. If he'd been caught three years earlier he'd have been given a rap over the knuckles, not sacked.

Why does the modern club indulge its failing managers to the extent we do? I don't want us to become like Chelsea who sack managers like they are going out of fashion, but if we had any genuine pride or ambition Arteta would be gone by now just as Wenger would have been gone by 2010. At least Wenger had credit in the bank, even though it had long since run out!

I agree with this Bob, although we've rarely pulled the trigger quite as fast as we shoud have, but about the part in red....I'd swap Chelsea's trophy haul in the last 20 yrs for ours. Frequent sackings seem distasteful and don't sit comfortably with me, but take that job and you know that you better perform quickly. Sad to say, it's done them no harm. The only dismissal I couldn't fathom was Ancelotti, but it shows how ruthless they were/are.

The funniest one was sacking Di Matteo, six months after he'd won them the bloody Champions' League by beating Barcelona and Bayern (on pens). They replaced him with the fat spanish waiter Benitez, who lasted all of six months until Mourinho was brought back for another spin.

Remember when they appointed ''Big Phil' Scolari?

''When asked whether his decision to join Chelsea was financial, he responded, "Yes, that is one of the reasons," but also added, "I'm 59 and I don't want to work as a coach until I'm 70. I want to retire in four or five years, so it was a financial matter but there are other things."

He's now 76 and still a manager.

[Limerick Gooner]

We have a huge risk of becoming the Spurs of a decade ago. Despite finishing above us every season, they won nothing and we won a few FA Cups. We loved taking the piss out of them but we are back there now. It’s every other Club side taking the piss out of us because we have nothing to show for a decent few years. Looks like we are edging further away now too. When I say he is going nowhere, it’s not because I agree with it. It’s because I’m stating a fact. Arteta will still be here for years as long as he gets top 4.

[SteveO 35]

We have a huge risk of becoming the Spurs of a decade ago. Despite finishing above us every season, they won nothing and we won a few FA Cups. We loved taking the piss out of them but we are back there now. It’s every other Club side taking the piss out of us because we have nothing to show for a decent few years. Looks like we are edging further away now too. When I say he is going nowhere, it’s not because I agree with it. It’s because I’m stating a fact. Arteta will still be here for years as long as he gets top 4.

Think that pretty much sums it up. That Spuds team had the best front 2 in the country and some other talented players too but were always the bottlejobs. Lost one of the worst ever CL finals league cup final, 2nd to Leicester etc. We won't reach a CL final so they arguably are ahead of where we are but I get the comparison. Everyone keeps telling us we've got the best centre half pairing in Europe, they had a great top two, but we are destined to finish like they did. I always thought Pochettino was too much the nice guy and not ruthless enough. Our fella talks like he's a management consultant and convinces people he's a genius and puts up with some utter clowns like Zinchenko, Kiwior, and more recently the likes of Trossard who has stunk the place out for months

[OneBardGooner]

Shout Out to Perry ... on Xabi Alonso as a realistic (and gettable) replacement for Arteta... Must admit I hadn't even thought of him!

[Limerick Gooner]

We have a huge risk of becoming the Spurs of a decade ago. Despite finishing above us every season, they won nothing and we won a few FA Cups. We loved taking the piss out of them but we are back there now. It’s every other Club side taking the piss out of us because we have nothing to show for a decent few years. Looks like we are edging further away now too. When I say he is going nowhere, it’s not because I agree with it. It’s because I’m stating a fact. Arteta will still be here for years as long as he gets top 4.

Think that pretty much sums it up. That Spuds team had the best front 2 in the country and some other talented players too but were always the bottlejobs. Lost one of the worst ever CL finals league cup final, 2nd to Leicester etc. We won't reach a CL final so they arguably are ahead of where we are but I get the comparison. Everyone keeps telling us we've got the best centre half pairing in Europe, they had a great top two, but we are destined to finish like they did. I always thought Pochettino was too much the nice guy and not ruthless enough. Our fella talks like he's a management consultant and convinces people he's a genius and puts up with some utter clowns like Zinchenko, Kiwior, and more recently the likes of Trossard who has stunk the place out for months

They weren’t even 2nd to Leicester. We were. They came 3rd in a two horse race.

[Gunner Rob]

Talking about the Wenger similarities, did anyone pick up on this little gem last week?

https://www.premierleague.com/news/4212700

Apparently our brave heroes have been crowned Calendar Year Champions 2024 to go alongside the same prestigious trophy There's Only One delivered for us back in 2013

The good times are back

This is expanded on in the programme from Tuesday night.
It is a quite remarkable article actually,

Apparently we had the second highest win percentage in the clubs history. 1932 was best.
It goes on to say that we COMPETED on four fronts in 2024
We apparently won all 3 of our Carabao cup games (funnily enough it ignores the one we lost )
We apparently won half of our 10 Champions League fixtures (is that really a big deal ??)

Of course whilst boasting about these amazing achievements it fails to mention that we won absolutely FUCK ALL in the way of trophies….

[Limerick Gooner]

Talking about the Wenger similarities, did anyone pick up on this little gem last week?

https://www.premierleague.com/news/4212700

Apparently our brave heroes have been crowned Calendar Year Champions 2024 to go alongside the same prestigious trophy There's Only One delivered for us back in 2013

The good times are back

This is expanded on in the programme from Tuesday night.
It is a quite remarkable article actually,

Apparently we had the second highest win percentage in the clubs history. 1932 was best.
It goes on to say that we COMPETED on four fronts in 2024
We apparently won all 3 of our Carabao cup games (funnily enough it ignores the one we lost )
We apparently won half of our 10 Champions League fixtures (is that really a big deal ??)

Of course whilst boasting about these amazing achievements it fails to mention that we won absolutely FUCK ALL in the way of trophies….

He must have some sort of collective amnesia. If you keep going into seasons without enough players to deal with fatigue, injuries, suspensions and illness then we are always going to hit a brick wall at some point in the season. We are loaded in defence and just about managing with several players out. But in the front line we would have had to have zero injuries and all players on form for every game to get through the season. It was mad. Literally mad. I cannot get my head around why we shipped out Nketiah, ESR, Nelson and Vieira to only bring in Sterling at 1 minute to midnight. It is literally baffling. I’m convinced we must have tried for someone else and it all fell through.

[Retro Gunner]

OB and Retro, both spot on as always. We are at a real crossroads moment now and to be honest, we were there this time last year too until a fantastic run of form got us within touching distance of the title. Having said that, we are at exactly the same spot that the dippers and chavs were in before they got their acts together and realised that they had to make managerial changes to get in blokes that had won titles and knew how to get the job done. I've put Arteta in the Brendan Rodgers, Chavs era Claudio Ranieri bracket for a while now in that he's had a go at managing a big club but has no history of ever winning a title as a manager. When it comes to it, like the other two, unless you've done it, you don't know what it takes and when it matters, you're going to be coming up short. Arteta's had his Rodgers 2014 season, pushing Cheaty all the way but coming up short and he's done his Ranieri thing of getting a club competing again but never really threatening to get over the line in first place. I suppose the point I'm making is that, like the other two, he's reached his ceiling and won't be able to take the team any further, higher or whatever; the players seem to know that too and you need someone with a title or two behind them to convince them that you know what you're doing. The dippers and Chavs saw Trampy and Maureen and couldn't wait to pull the trigger. It had the necessary effect and whilst I can't stand the sight of either of them, they got the league title won and their clubs competing at the top of the table more often that not.
That's what we need now, we need to be a bit ruthless and realistic and the club has to say we're ready to move on. Thanks, Mikel for what you've done, you've put us back in the mix but we're not convinced you're the man to take us further. Like OB says, I can't think of many names that would be an option now but we need someone who knows what it takes to win a title in a proper league with demanding supporters. As mush as I hate to say it but Slott at the dippers knows what it's like to win the league with a club who have high expectations and in a physical, tough league. Same with Maureen and Klopp. Both had come from decent leagues at clubs who demand success and want to see their team winning things. That mentality and experience then drove both their next clubs forward because when they got close, they knew how to get it done. When you're sitting on the bench as an assistant coach at the richest club in the world next to your mate, you don't have any accountability or fear of coming up short. His views might have been sought every now and again but when it came to results or transfers or contracts, he wasn't in there, he wasn't making the big decisions. At the end of the day, we're seeing that now, we're seeing the lack of experience both on the pitch and in the transfer market; he's built a squad and yes, improved it considerably from the mess Wanker left behind but that squad has come to the end of a cycle and he's not the man to re-energise it and improve it. If you can't see you need a goal scorer for two years or more, what does that tell us?
Like I say, this is the crossroads. We can either go right back down the Wanker route and keep ignoring the warning signs and indulging the 'nearly there' but still failing line until it drives us all apart as a supporter base again or we can show some ambition, show we mean business and will demand success and replace him at the end of the season. He is an OK manager and could do a decent job at an Athetic Bilbao or a Marseille but it's just not going to happen with us and that's all I care about, really. I don't give a shit any more about 'style of play' or being taken on a 'journey'. I want fucking trophies because that's the whole fucking point of the game.
I'm not that good on things outside of Arsenal but if I had to name a name, I would start seeking out how Xabi Alonso at Leverkusen and see if he's at all interested. League winner at a top league and knows the Premiership. Might be worth asking the question.

Cracking post Perry and from the heart. I can sense the pain and frustration in the words and we’ve all felt it for too long.

We can only hope that the owners don’t drag us into years on end of nothingness again, although I’ve no confidence in them not doing so. He’ll get next season even if we have a massive collapse for the remainder of this one, but no trophies again at the end of that and there would be no excuses for keeping him. It would be 7 seasons with only an FA Cup in his first few months. In my opinion he’d be gone at the end of this one.

All managers have a shelf life, some longer than others and the top clubs sees the signs early and get shot before harm is done. The only manager that bucked the trend was Ferguson and whatever we think of him, the man was a force of nature, consistently winning trophies for 20 years. He even reacted and took the fight to Chelsea when the Russian bankrolled success, whereas our old clown took the opportunity to freewheel and moan about financial doping.

I didn’t want Arteta and still maintain that a club claiming to have ambitions of competing at the top table cannot appoint a novice. That said, he brought some structure and stability to the club and did put us in a position to compete for the league in the previous two seasons. Unfortunately, as you say, he didn’t have the ability or experience to ultimately make it count and the failure to sign a quality striker…and buying proven duds in that position….removes any sympathy, in my mind at least. The wheels have turned and he’s now in a regressive downward spiral. He won’t pull out of it, he’s reached sell by.

[augie]

Possibly I am clutching at straws here, but I'm not as sure as I was that another wenger scenario could unfold here where the fans remain loyal to the manager far longer than they should - I see a big number of fans comparing this to the Brendan Rodgers situation with the victims where he lifted them up a level but didnt have the experience or guile to lead them to trophies, and that kind of rational thinking is far more compelling than the arguments held over wenger. With wenger it got all emotional and people defended him based on emotion and criticised him emotionally to the point that it got abusive (me included), but the rodgers comparison kinda gives him praise for lifting us up but at the same time points to a rival club and how they behaved with their club started to go backwards and the ruthless ambition they showed helped lift them back up - like I keep saying this is not personal for any of us against the manager, but first and foremost we are Arsenal fans and the good of the club MUST come ahead of any loyalty to any manager, and that starts with a recognition and acceptance that he has lifted us as far as he can and that we need to bring in a manager that can improve us and lift us back to the winners podium again