The latest Excuse - OOPS - I Mean Theory

[WalesGooner71]

We should all know the answer by the end of the season !! If we win the league - the transfer policy wont be mentioned again until we have 5 years of no trophies. If we dont grab any pots then if its down to the boards lack of spending Wenger will walk away as his contract will be up and if its Wenger not spending though pure bloody mindedness then the board will never have a better opportunity to let him go without compensation!!!

All will be revealed!!

[I Hate Hleb]

No - not a patsy - he'd have to be completely unaware and that strikes me as the last thing he'd be. Taking the fall by choice ala - since you brought up Mr Rumsfeld - Scooter Libby whoi knows his future is absolutely and would have been even if he did time. He took the fall for one of the greater liars and greatest criminals ever to hold high office in America.

Anyway of course the Board don't want Mr. Wenger to leave because if he did whatever the reason the expectations would change dramatically and they couldn't get away with the whole "money is available to spend" schtick another day without actually having to spend it. They couldn't fool his replacement or the supporters for another minute than. So of course they don't want him to leave

Okay, I'll accept that 'patsy' in it's truest sense is probably not apt to describe Wenger's role in this situation - especially as he was all for the move to the new ground and was aware that there would be the resultant shortage of funds initially. However this season certainly, and most probably last season as well - after the sales of Ade and Kolo - he did have funds available. That is not doubted by anyone.

So how about Co-Conspirator then?

[Gooner_Sam]

He is culpable in the fact that he's wealthy enough and isn't as reliant on retaining his job - personal and family survival wise - as what you or I might be, and therefore would have the financial security to do what he wanted.

Anyway, if their quotes during his time at Arsenal is anything to go by, the Board are so shit scared of losing him that they'd probably suck his knob if he asked them to - never mind find a few extra quid for him to spend on players!!

I doubt him being fearful of being dismissed would be a valid or accurate reason for his compliance if there was something he was dead set against. And so what if the Arsenal Board did sack him? Don't you think with his reputation and record he'd soon find another job in football?

Finally, surely the high moral principals (that I don't doubt he genuinely holds) would
ensure that he didn't go along with what he considered to be a charade - especially the
way he makes such a big thing about principles
!!!

Therefore he does have the freedom to come out with the truth, if he felt - like you and others obviously do - he was being set up as some sort of 'patsy' by the Arsenal
Board.

A IHH post without a single emotion means serious shit is going down

His dealer must be out of town

[g88ner]

I wonder how many theories these Gooners throughout the web will offer before finally conceding that maybe - just maybe - that maybe the Board could do a little bit more for Arsenal Football Club now.

But surely these theories that gooners have, regarding Wenger, and your rather obvious observation (which probably 99% of gooners would agree with) that the board "could do a little more for Arsenal" are not actually mutually exclusive, are they??

I get that some fans think Wenger is in the wrong, and others think the board are in the wrong - but the vast, VAST majority are in the middle somewhere and are frustrated and a tad disillusioned with BOTH Wenger and the board.

After all, BOTH Wenger and the board are equally as guilty for making misleading statements. As I said in a different thread, Wenger has said there only 10 players in the world we can't afford, whereas you can take your pick of the times a board member has given a glowing report of our finances and the vast amounts available to spend - THEY'RE ALL IN ON IT TOGETHER, BECAUSE IT SUITS THEM ALL DOWN TO THE GROUND!

My theory is that Wenger and the board are the perfect fit for each other, in that they both get what they want.

The board had a huge project to contend with by moving stadium. They're paying the debts off and are probably absolutely delighted that they can save their pennies and have pretty much the only manager in world football who DOESN'T demand money, and kick up a fuss.

There strategy wouldn't work without Wenger, and therefore he'll be offered a nice new contract.

You think Wenger puts up with this out of loyalty??? No chance! - I think it suits Wenger perfectly!

He's currently fulfilling a lifetimes ambition of developing a young team, and seeing them come through together under his guidance and based upon his philosophy - and best of all, he's able to do this with the boards blessing, at a top club that can attract a high quality of young talent, and with a wage budget that allows him to recruit them!!!!

It's perfect - it's what he's dreamed of, and has said as much many times before, so lets not paint Wenger as some sort of martyr here!

Where they're clever is how they spread the blame to pacify the supporters, and they keep us sweet by giving us great soundbites, and selling us the future. It's clever really, because selling the future enables them to keep people hanging on, and on, and on...

But because they're all in on it, I'm not sure there's much anyone can do. It's a tightly knit group down from the board and the manager, to the backroom staff and the players who many of which owe their careers to Wenger.
- They're all totally committed to the current path, and I'm not convinced that the supporters really come into it. After all, the club would argue that they know better than the fans, and they do - most fans have differing opinions of almost every issue, so it's hardly a case of us against them, is it?! and even if it was, it's doubtful it would force a change. The Glazers seem to have found it quite easy to switch off from the irrate fans, and I'm sure Kroenke, Fiszman and Wenger would do the same. After all, they know best...

[I Hate Hleb]

He is culpable in the fact that he's wealthy enough and isn't as reliant on retaining his job - personal and family survival wise - as what you or I might be, and therefore would have the financial security to do what he wanted.

Anyway, if their quotes during his time at Arsenal is anything to go by, the Board are so shit scared of losing him that they'd probably suck his knob if he asked them to - never mind find a few extra quid for him to spend on players!!

I doubt him being fearful of being dismissed would be a valid or accurate reason for his compliance if there was something he was dead set against. And so what if the Arsenal Board did sack him? Don't you think with his reputation and record he'd soon find another job in football?

Finally, surely the high moral principals (that I don't doubt he genuinely holds) would ensure that he didn't go along with what he considered to be a charade - especially the
way he makes such a big thing about principles
!!!

Therefore he does have the freedom to come out with the truth, if he felt - like you and others obviously do - he was being set up as some sort of 'patsy' by the Arsenal
Board.

A IHH post without a single emotion means serious shit is going down

His dealer must be out of town

You're both right as it happens. However, unlike Wenger it seems, I think ahead and make contingency plans, and thus can happily say that I've sitting here buzzing as ever!!!

[QuartzGooner]

Board keeping powder dry whilst others outspend us.
Board spent large on new stadium so has to chill a bit.
Board waiting for spending/revenue legislation by FIFA, being prudent in meantime.
Wenger develops youths in response to the above belt-tightening,
and out of interest in seeing how well he can do with team mainly of youths developed by him.


Board not spending so as to raise share price ahead of large sharesales/takeover?
Possibly some members of board are keen on that?

But share price would rise anyway because,
of :
Increased success of club under Wenger,
Increased infrastucture owned,
Raised global interest in Premier League.

Spending on players might have won trophies which too would have raised share price.
It might also not have won a thing.


Does Wenger need to buy?
I believe so.
Are conspiracies rife.
I believe so.
Are they correct?
Not neccessarily.

[northbankbren]

Board keeping powder dry whilst others outspend us.
Board spent large on new stadium so has to chill a bit.
Board waiting for spending/revenue legislation by FIFA, being prudent in meantime.
Wenger develops youths in response to the above belt-tightening,
and out of interest in seeing how well he can do with team mainly of youths developed by him.


Board not spending so as to raise share price ahead of large sharesales/takeover?
Possibly some members of board are keen on that?

But share price would rise anyway because,
of :
Increased success of club under Wenger,
Increased infrastucture owned,
Raised global interest in Premier League.

Spending on players might have won trophies which too would have raised share price.
It might also not have won a thing.


Does Wenger need to buy?
I believe so.
Are conspiracies rife.
I believe so.
Are they correct?
Not neccessarily.

All of the above

[USMartin]

No - not a patsy - he'd have to be completely unaware and that strikes me as the last thing he'd be. Taking the fall by choice ala - since you brought up Mr Rumsfeld - Scooter Libby whoi knows his future is absolutely and would have been even if he did time. He took the fall for one of the greater liars and greatest criminals ever to hold high office in America.

Anyway of course the Board don't want Mr. Wenger to leave because if he did whatever the reason the expectations would change dramatically and they couldn't get away with the whole "money is available to spend" schtick another day without actually having to spend it. They couldn't fool his replacement or the supporters for another minute than. So of course they don't want him to leave

Okay, I'll accept that 'patsy' in it's truest sense is probably not apt to describe Wenger's role in this situation - especially as he was all for the move to the new ground and was aware that there would be the resultant shortage of funds initially. However this season certainly, and most probably last season as well - after the sales of Ade and Kolo - he did have funds available. That is not doubted by anyone.

So how about Co-Conspirator then?

To a certain extent no doubt. I think that that can be the case but I do think the example you provide is not necessarily the best because I think again that one of the great issues is how the wage structure has been re-adjusted as Dan Fiszman himself noted so there are fewer players on either ots "extremes". I think this was absolutely down to the Board. I cannot see why Arsene Wenger if he felt this necessary or approraite would have stayed here through 2005 given just how many more players were in fact on those extremes. Besides as the Ashley Cole Report Confirms the Board has the foibnal says on the wages and thus sets the wage structure.

Many have said and this makes sense that there were times where we did not buy because in theory the manger could not find better players he could afford to sign. Now when you consider this half of it - whether he could find better players that the Board would sanction paying as much as they might well have asked for, then that idea does make sense.

But I do believe for some reason that the Manager does not stand up for himself necessarily or the team or its supporters and clearly is more than willing to accept if not accomodate the Board and its plans and the motives behind them. I just believe that if the Board actually changed their policy then Mr. Wenger would as well. But if it was the other way around I'm not nearly so confident of that.

[northbankbren]

oh and to add usmartin, i agree with an awful lot of what you have to say, but too many threads and posts with exactly the same points....can you not keep it to one or two threads?

I think you have added a nice new dimension to the forum!!!!, but your post can come across as a campaign, which certain people have been suspect about, im not suspect on who you are, i just think your a fan thats totally wrong on your overall view, part of me cant and wont be bothered to explain, because we'll be arguing on different threads all over the place, and i'll probably never be rite in your eyes.

BUT i will post this and leave it....

I want trophies like everyone else!!! And I feel we do have money that we can take a "risk" with by investing in 2-3 players (we all know where we need strengthening). This is frustrating and I think both board and wenger need to loosen up. We cannot forget Arsene's influence on our wage and transfer structure. They need to take a small risk for us fans. We deserve it.

Then the MAJOR BUT!!!!.....

You seem to dismiss any comparison to other teams financial situations......if you looked at top 7 in spain, italy, germany, france, portugal, holland, brazil, argentina....any country. And compared the financial books....We would be in top 3 in the world!!!!!!!!

Never believe what a board member announces to the public, the board cocked up massivley telling us the new stadium woulnt effect our tranfer budget(but then how did they know a world wide recession would kick in). It was always going to effect the budget, but clearly the global financial crisis wasnt implemented in the plan.

I cannot admit to knowing our finances inside out or in massive detail (still reading through and trying to understand our last set of accounts ), but we have just moved into a NEW STADIUM thats the equivalent of over 100 world class players!!!! and will secure the future of the club in the long run. The re-development of highbury. This and the recession= belt tightening....too much belt tightening...yeah a bit.

We are in the greatest position as a club we ever have been in my opinion.

US im not going to get into a debate, i do respect your opinion but i want to know what you want.

What is your ideal Arsenal board?

[USMartin]

I wonder how many theories these Gooners throughout the web will offer before finally conceding that maybe - just maybe - that maybe the Board could do a little bit more for Arsenal Football Club now.

But surely these theories that gooners have, regarding Wenger, and your rather obvious observation (which probably 99% of gooners would agree with) that the board "could do a little more for Arsenal" are not actually mutually exclusive, are they??

I get that some fans think Wenger is in the wrong, and others think the board are in the wrong - but the vast, VAST majority are in the middle somewhere and are frustrated and a tad disillusioned with BOTH Wenger and the board.

After all, BOTH Wenger and the board are equally as guilty for making misleading statements. As I said in a different thread, Wenger has said there only 10 players in the world we can't afford, whereas you can take your pick of the times a board member has given a glowing report of our finances and the vast amounts available to spend - THEY'RE ALL IN ON IT TOGETHER, BECAUSE IT SUITS THEM ALL DOWN TO THE GROUND!

My theory is that Wenger and the board are the perfect fit for each other, in that they both get what they want.

The board had a huge project to contend with by moving stadium. They're paying the debts off and are probably absolutely delighted that they can save their pennies and have pretty much the only manager in world football who DOESN'T demand money, and kick up a fuss.

There strategy wouldn't work without Wenger, and therefore he'll be offered a nice new contract.

You think Wenger puts up with this out of loyalty??? No chance! - I think it suits Wenger perfectly!

He's currently fulfilling a lifetimes ambition of developing a young team, and seeing them come through together under his guidance and based upon his philosophy - and best of all, he's able to do this with the boards blessing, at a top club that can attract a high quality of young talent, and with a wage budget that allows him to recruit them!!!!

It's perfect - it's what he's dreamed of, and has said as much many times before, so lets not paint Wenger as some sort of martyr here!

Where they're clever is how they spread the blame to pacify the supporters, and they keep us sweet by giving us great soundbites, and selling us the future. It's clever really, because selling the future enables them to keep people hanging on, and on, and on...

But because they're all in on it, I'm not sure there's much anyone can do. It's a tightly knit group down from the board and the manager, to the backroom staff and the players who many of which owe their careers to Wenger.
- They're all totally committed to the current path, and I'm not convinced that the supporters really come into it. After all, the club would argue that they know better than the fans, and they do - most fans have differing opinions of almost every issue, so it's hardly a case of us against them, is it?! and even if it was, it's doubtful it would force a change. The Glazers seem to have found it quite easy to switch off from the irrate fans, and I'm sure Kroenke, Fiszman and Wenger would do the same. After all, they know best...

There is some truth here but the real question is would Mr. Wenger have done the same things if the Board actually made the same money as or even more monry than before?

Point being that its up to the Board to act to change things by either making more money avauilable to the manager or by replacing him with a manager they are certain would spend it.

[USMartin]

oh and to add usmartin, i agree with an awful lot of what you have to say, but too many threads and posts with exactly the same points....can you not keep it to one or two threads?

I think you have added a nice new dimension to the forum!!!!, but your post can come across as a campaign, which certain people have been suspect about, im not suspect on who you are, i just think your a fan thats totally wrong on your overall view, part of me cant and wont be bothered to explain, because we'll be arguing on different threads all over the place, and i'll probably never be rite in your eyes.

BUT i will post this and leave it....

I want trophies like everyone else!!! And I feel we do have money that we can take a "risk" with by investing in 2-3 players (we all know where we need strengthening). This is frustrating and I think both board and wenger need to loosen up. We cannot forget Arsene's influence on our wage and transfer structure. They need to take a small risk for us fans. We deserve it.

Then the MAJOR BUT!!!!.....

You seem to dismiss any comparison to other teams financial situations......if you looked at top 7 in spain, italy, germany, france, portugal, holland, brazil, argentina....any country. And compared the financial books....We would be in top 3 in the world!!!!!!!!

Never believe what a board member announces to the public, the board cocked up massivley telling us the new stadium woulnt effect our tranfer budget(but then how did they know a world wide recession would kick in). It was always going to effect the budget, but clearly the global financial crisis wasnt implemented in the plan.

I cannot admit to knowing our finances inside out or in massive detail (still reading through and trying to understand our last set of accounts ), but we have just moved into a NEW STADIUM thats the equivalent of over 100 world class players!!!! and will secure the future of the club in the long run. The re-development of highbury. This and the recession= belt tightening....too much belt tightening...yeah a bit.

We are in the greatest position as a club we ever have been in my opinion.

US im not going to get into a debate, i do respect your opinion but i want to know what you want.

What is your ideal Arsenal board?

For someone who doesn't want to discuss this in gret detail or get into a debate well its sure looks like you have done that and do want that

Let's start at the end. I just want the situation we had before 2005 where I believe our Board showed considreably more ambition than it has since 2005. Not spending dfor spending's sake our recklessly strecthing the limits of our finances, but simply as I have said many times beofre a Board that better balaces Arsenal's ambitions as a football club and its financial obligastions and targets as a business. I want us to venture into the middle gorund between what we are doing now and what the other top clubs doing. Not to spend like Chelsea or Man U or now Man City, but simply to spend like Arsenal used to.

For the record I woul;d have no problem with the Board taking annual dividends as rthey are investors and entitled to return on that investment and before 2005 I would even say deserving of reward for their efforts. In fact the sole reason they would not be desrving of reward since then would their dubious actions and claims and questionable honesty and decdeication to the best intersts of Arsenal since 2005. Buutb they still are entitled to return on their investment so long as they do not deliberately weaken the football team or its chances to comepet to win trophies to increase those dividends.

It is not simply the right and fair thing - again so long as they still place investment in the team when and where needed as the first priority for all club profits - but looking at what is happening might have been the smart thing for Arsenal if not those looking to make huge money selling out to this point. I would prefer - if they re-prioritzed the football team as their first priority again - the current Board remain in place as I am not suere that any new owner would behave differently than the current Board have since 2005.

My campaign as you call it - rightly I guess - began as simply a campaign against under-investment in a very special football team in terms of talent quality and achievement. It is as I have learned more about what has been done and the reasons or possible reasons why that it has turned into all of this.

I need a breath and you'll probably need one by the time you get down here...

[/b]

[USMartin]

All will be revealed!!

IF ONLY ...

I hope you are right though

[USMartin]

As to your BUT.....

*Good God that sounds so wrong*


..... I think again we are seeking to work in the middle ground as we used to and not risking the the Club's finances in any way or to disregard the good work done by the Club and the Board in that specific regard. We simply believe as you yourself suggest than the club can do a fair bit more and should do just that and should have been doing this all along - sice 2005 I mean.

As I have pointed out before from 1998-2005 the eight single most successful years in the history of Arsenal and a period which saw at least two of the very best years in club history we spent on average less than six million pounds a year - barely more than what we paid for Aaron Ramsey.

The point being while its unlikely we could spend that little now and achieve what we did then, spending 11 million a year could might make doing that possible , or certainly more possible. But we can certainly afford that, and if we didn't need to do that - look at the summer of 03 when we only added Jens Lehmann to the side - why do that even?

As I say I think we could afford to do more a fair bit more than we have and should make that our goal.

[northbankbren]

ITS 2010....TIMES CHANGE.....

YOU KEEP GOING ON ABOUT PRE-2007/8.........

WE DIDNT HAVE THE DEBT WE DO NOW.....A BRAND NEW STADIUM AND RE-DEVLOPMENT PROJECT ON THE GO......

OK YOU GOT ME ONE MORE QUESTION.

CAN YOU NAME ME 2 TEAMS IN THE CHAMPIONS LEAGUE WHO ARE IN A BETTER LONG TERM FINANCIAL SITUATION THEN US???....NO LONG POST.... JUST 2 TEAMS????

[USMartin]

ITS 2010....TIMES CHANGE.....

YOU KEEP GOING ON ABOUT PRE-2007/8.........

WE DIDNT HAVE THE DEBT WE DO NOW.....A BRAND NEW STADIUM AND RE-DEVLOPMENT PROJECT ON THE GO......

OK YOU GOT ME ONE MORE QUESTION.

CAN YOU NAME ME 2 TEAMS IN THE CHAMPIONS LEAGUE WHO ARE IN A BETTER LONG TERM FINANCIAL SITUATION THEN US???....NO LONG POST.... JUST 2 TEAMS????

Not off the top of my head although if you look at at sites like Futbol Fionance they will note there are several clubs in very good financial shape and that some in "bad" financial shape aren't necessarily so muc so.

But again you seem to be avoiding the reality that we now only carry debt on the new stadium, and that it is quite managable at this point without totally disrupting spending on the football team. And that in addition even with this debt over us we have over 100 million perhaps as much as 150 million in banks now being used neither to pay off the debt nor to invest in the football team. That alone should raise serious questions and concerns about the Board 's plans and goals at this point. Even using half of that money would not threaten the club's financial viability. And less than that would be enough to significantly strengthen the team.

The purpose of a football club isn't simply to have more money in the bank than any otther club whenever possible any more than it is to spend every penny we make.