Chill out - we can't change things. What will be, will be.

[QuartzGooner]

So effectively you're saying that we the fans are being treated as fools by Wenger and the Board, right? And that's okay by you, yeah?

Do not think we are being treated as fools because anyone can see how weak we are on the pitch compared to Chelsea.

Wenger PR speak is talking up his players for his players' sake and commercial reasons.


USMartin

Fair play rules merely compliment other positive aspects of Arsenal's long term plan.
No contradiction, no big issue.

[I Hate Hleb]

So effectively you're saying that we the fans are being treated as fools by Wenger and the Board, right? And that's okay by you, yeah?

Do not think we are being treated as fools because anyone can see how weak we are on the pitch compared to Chelsea.

Wenger PR speak is talking up his players for his players' sake and commercial reasons....

So when he says in public 'Judge me in May', is it that he doesn't really mean it, or that he's not really talking to us fans at all?

[USMartin]

Yes it is to say we will spend more when the fair play rules go into effect after saying we'll spend more whent the stadium is paid for when thosetwo events could occur a decade is in fact a contradiction. Pretending its not is just dishonest I'm afriad.

When defending the Board you stretch the truth to the breaking point and well beyond every post or every other post plain and simple. When you refuse to acknowledge that it is no longer stretching the truth but willful deception.

It's as disrespectful to this forum as a whole as the Board and manager's "PR" as you like to call it is to Gooners everywhere.

[USMartin]

So you don't think the Board repeatedly - and based on your beliefs -deliberately lying to the supporters for the past several years about money being available to spend if the manager wants to is in no way insulting or disrespectful or unfair to supporters, Quartz?

[QuartzGooner]

Yes it is to say we will spend more when the fair play rules go into effect after saying we'll spend more whent the stadium is paid for when thosetwo events could occur a decade is in fact a contradiction. Pretending its not is just dishonest I'm afriad.

USMartin

This is simple.


We will have more to spend when stadium bond is paid off 2031.

But when Financial Fair play rules take hold in 2018+

Not only will others who rely on "Sugar Daddy" type arrangements be less well off compared to before the regulations kicked in,

Arsenal will seize that opportunity to spend more.

Because our money will go further then, when our opponents are weaker.

It is called "Keeping One's Powder Dry".



I cannot prove that, because it is in the future so it is just my guess.

NO contradiction involved.



IHH

"Judge me in May?"

Flannel for the players, most clued up fans can see we have not been strong enough since summer 2008.

[USMartin]

Yes it is to say we will spend more when the fair play rules go into effect after saying we'll spend more whent the stadium is paid for when thosetwo events could occur a decade is in fact a contradiction. Pretending its not is just dishonest I'm afriad.

USMartin

This is simple.


We will have more to spend when stadium bond is paid off 2031.

NO its not simple - because you have stated outright before that we just have to accpet this is the way things will be until the stadium is fully paid
and now say no it will be when the new fiinancial rules take effect thirteen years soonr? That's not simple that's a significant contradiction. The math can't lie Quartz. Papprently you have no such problemm playing games with the truth.

Let me guess - the thirteen year gap is another "technicality"
But when Financial Fair play rules take hold in 2018+

Not only will others who rely on "Sugar Daddy" type arrangements be less well off compared to before the regulations kicked in,

Arsenal will seize that opportunity to spend more.

Because our money will go further then, when our opponents are weaker.

It is called "Keeping One's Powder Dry".



I cannot prove that, because it is in the future so it is just my guess.

NO contradiction involved.



IHH

"Judge me in May?"

Flannel for the players, most clued up fans can see we have not been strong enough since summer 2008.

[USMartin]

You are gonna answer that question about the Board's statements on money being available to spend I hope btw.

[QuartzGooner]

There is money available to spend, the club's accounts clearly show that, but it is up to Wenger to spend it, no one can force him to spend!

[USMartin]

Excuse me, but yopu know as well as I do that based on your contrdictory cliaims that money is not going to be spent until eityher 2-018 n 2031 or both and so no one can or will spend it now and its not even down to the manager.

You just said the money will be spent either in 2018 when the Financial Fair Play Rules kicn or in 2031 when the stadium will be paid off. So either you have just lied about that or you are unwilling to acknoewedge the fact your own evidence proves that they have been lying to the supporters about money actually being available to spend for football players.

Which is it then?

[g88ner]

You just said the money will be spent either in 2018 when the Financial Fair Play Rules kicn or in 2031 when the stadium will be paid off. So either you have just lied about that or you are unwilling to acknoewedge the fact your own evidence proves that they have been lying to the supporters about money actually being available to spend for football players.

Which is it then?

I seem to be reading Quartz' post differently to you, Martin.

The way I read Quartz' post, was that the reigns will be loosened substantially in 2031 when the stadium is paid off HOWEVER as of 2018, the other clubs we're competing against will have to abide by the financial fair play regulations, and Quartz is suggesting that Arsenal may "seize the opportunity to spend more".

However, he's not contradicting himself by suggesting that money is available now should Wenger wish to spend it.

[QuartzGooner]

G88ner's above post is exactly how I hoped my posts would be understood.


There is money available to spend, clearly shown in club accounts.


If Wenger does not want to spend because he is playing a long term game, so be it.

He spent on Arshavin, he felt he was worth the money.

Wenger AND Gazidis have repeatedly told fans that they will not be held to ransom over transfers, that the main focus on players is on youth development supplemented by occasional purchases.

That is truth because we can all see it.


When Wenger says he thinks we will win the league, it is spin, because again, we can all see it will not happen.
He is just talking up the players, attempting to keep morale high.

There is no issue here, it is just called using one's common sense to separate the wheat from the chaff.

[USMartin]

You just said the money will be spent either in 2018 when the Financial Fair Play Rules kicn or in 2031 when the stadium will be paid off. So either you have just lied about that or you are unwilling to acknoewedge the fact your own evidence proves that they have been lying to the supporters about money actually being available to spend for football players.

Which is it then?

I seem to be reading Quartz' post differently to you, Martin.

The way I read Quartz' post, was that the reigns will be loosened substantially in 2031 when the stadium is paid off HOWEVER as of 2018, the other clubs we're competing against will have to abide by the financial fair play regulations, and Quartz is suggesting that Arsenal may "seize the opportunity to spend more".

However, he's not contradicting himself buy suggesting that money is available now should Wenger wish to spend it.

Gooner let's be honest here. Do you sincerely believe that the money is available to spend - not may be but is? The Board has stated repeatedly as far back as 2005 that money is available to spend if the manager wishes to> Quartz has stated in this thread and elsewhere even stated that we had to accept that more money would not be available until the stadium was fully paid for.

He has restated this here today even as he states actually we'll start spending again a decade sooner than that and now when asked doesn't that make those claims about money being available to spend at this time and in the last five years false is trying to say otherwise. It's that simple really.

You know a lot of people simply dismiss what I say because I don't have 100% ironclad evidence of my views even though as we see here quarter-truth half-truth and three-quarter truth at best is more than good enough where the Board is concerned. Well I'm not going to accept less proof than I am expected to provide so I'm not going to let half-truth substituet for truth here from him or anyone.

No do you believe the Board has deliberately mis-led supporters when claiming back to 2005 that money was available to spend that was going unspent by a choice other than their own based on what Quartz has said referring to spending in 2018 and 2031?

[Iceman29]

Martin, why dont you come over the official forum and post you thoughts over there?

[QuartzGooner]

Quartz has stated in this thread and elsewhere even stated that we had to accept that more money would not be available until the stadium was fully paid for.

No I have Not said that.

I clarify that Wenger will spend medium to large amounts on individual players he believes are different to those he has in the squad i.e. Arshavin.

He will spend if needed. But is focusing on youth development.

He will clearly not go out and blow the club's savings right now as it would be less likely to bring us success in the league, than if he spent 2018+ when the Fair Play rules have come in and our rivals are weakened, or especially after 2031 (obviously someone other than Wenger would be boss then) when the club does not have to set aside £16 - £20M per season to paying off the stadium.

But I did say that the club has taken steps to improve commercial/retail revenues.

[g88ner]

Gooner let's be honest here. Do you sincerely believe that the money is available to spend - not may be but is? The Board has stated repeatedly as far back as 2005 that money is available to spend if the manager wishes to> Quartz has stated in this thread and elsewhere even stated that we had to accept that more money would not be available until the stadium was fully paid for.

- The accounts do show that money is there.
- The board has said money is available.
- Wenger has said that money is available.

Who am I to argue with that? - if the evidence backs the theory that money is there, and the board/Wenger have consistency said that money is there, which they have, then it's difficult to argue.

So yes, I believe that there is money available if and when Wenger chooses to spend it. Not vast sums, but enough to bring in an important player in January, like we did with Arshavin. If an opportunity arises to spend £5-10m on a 'keeper, then I don't believe the board would protest. I really don't.

I also believe Wenger is reluctant to spend, because it would mean pushing his babies further away from the first team. I don't think he wants to do that, as he enjoys developing players and wants to see them progress into the first team.

do you believe the Board has deliberately mis-led supporters when claiming back to 2005 that money was available to spend that was going unspent by a choice other than their own based on what Quartz has said referring to spending in 2018 and 2031?

I've read that twice, and I can't say I understand the question. I get two thirds through your quesiton, and it's making sense, then the last bit confuses me. Perhaps if you phrased it differently, I could answer. Sorry, mate. Either that, or we just leave it unanswered.