As we're unlikely to see terraces again at football, this is the virtual equivalent where you can chat to your hearts content about all football matters and, obviously, Arsenal in particular. This forum encourages all Gooners to visit and contribute so please keep it respectful, clean and topical.
GunnerRyan wrote:finally got a letter from my mp today:
Thank you for contacting me, regarding Safe Standing in football stadia. Lord Justice Taylor recommended twenty years ago that standing be abolished at matches in the top two leagues. This was in light of a series of incidents at football games, of which the Hillsborough disaster, where nearly 100 died and many more were injured, was the most dreadful.
I hope you will agree that most football grounds, for a number of reasons, are safer and more comfortable than they were 15 or 20 years ago. Whilst I understand why many supporters miss the tradition, the feel and the atmosphere that some grounds had before, statistics are less likely to be injured at all-seater grounds than at those that retain standing accommodation. I also understand that those who manage, license or certify stadia generally hold the view that the introduction of all-seated stadia has helped to improve crowd management and the crowd behaviour.
Seating also offers higher standards of comfort and provides spectators with their own defensible spaces, which can only contribute to encouraging families and increasing the diversity of those attending football matches in recent years. The Football Licensing Authority (FLA) considered the 'Kombi' system, which is used in Germany, on the government's behalf in 2001. It concluded that while it was well engineered, the current design of English grounds would not allow for the installation of this system without substantial investment by clubs, including, in some cases, the complete rebuilding of stands.
The minister for Sport, Hugh Robertson, has expressed doubt that a compelling case has been made to change the policy on standing areas. But he and I shall continue to follow with interest any developments or further representations that are made on this subject
If you would like to discuss this or any other matter, please do not hesitate to contact me at any time.
with every good with.
Yours sincerely
Andrew Rosindell M.P
least i got a lengthy reply..
What a load of shit, clearly just repeating the "hillsborough-friendly" soundbites trotted out by every other numpty. C*nts like this who have no understanding of the situation & have probably never even been to a game (outside the prawn sandwich boxes anyway) are making the decisions for us. Pisstake.
I like the way he keeps banging on about how much more comfortable it is now We don't want opera-style luxury you plum. Better crowd management? Yeah that sounds about right. Gotta keep an eye on us all haven't they Complete rebuilding of stands to implement it?! Do me a favour.
I'd be tempted to write back to him if he was my MP
GunnerRyan wrote:finally got a letter from my mp today:
Thank you for contacting me, regarding Safe Standing in football stadia. Lord Justice Taylor recommended twenty years ago that standing be abolished at matches in the top two leagues. This was in light of a series of incidents at football games, of which the Hillsborough disaster, where nearly 100 died and many more were injured, was the most dreadful.
I hope you will agree that most football grounds, for a number of reasons, are safer and more comfortable than they were 15 or 20 years ago. Whilst I understand why many supporters miss the tradition, the feel and the atmosphere that some grounds had before, statistics are less likely to be injured at all-seater grounds than at those that retain standing accommodation. I also understand that those who manage, license or certify stadia generally hold the view that the introduction of all-seated stadia has helped to improve crowd management and the crowd behaviour.
Seating also offers higher standards of comfort and provides spectators with their own defensible spaces, which can only contribute to encouraging families and increasing the diversity of those attending football matches in recent years. The Football Licensing Authority (FLA) considered the 'Kombi' system, which is used in Germany, on the government's behalf in 2001. It concluded that while it was well engineered, the current design of English grounds would not allow for the installation of this system without substantial investment by clubs, including, in some cases, the complete rebuilding of stands.
The minister for Sport, Hugh Robertson, has expressed doubt that a compelling case has been made to change the policy on standing areas. But he and I shall continue to follow with interest any developments or further representations that are made on this subject
If you would like to discuss this or any other matter, please do not hesitate to contact me at any time.
with every good with.
Yours sincerely
Andrew Rosindell M.P
least i got a lengthy reply..
What a load of shit, clearly just repeating the "hillsborough-friendly" soundbites trotted out by every other numpty. C*nts like this who have no understanding of the situation & have probably never even been to a game (outside the prawn sandwich boxes anyway) are making the decisions for us. Pisstake.
I like the way he keeps banging on about how much more comfortable it is now We don't want opera-style luxury you plum. Better crowd management? Yeah that sounds about right. Gotta keep an eye on us all haven't they Complete rebuilding of stands to implement it?! Do me a favour.
I'd be tempted to write back to him if he was my MP
this is what i replied, doubt it will have much effect but might as well..
RE: Letter sent on the 23/12/10
Dear Andrew Rosindell,
Thank you for replying to my message sent on 9/12/10. Whilst I acknowledge your views supporting all-seater stadiums, I can only disagree entirely.
I am fifteen years old and attend ******* in ******. Despite my youth, I have regularly attended many football games with my father for the the past 7 years, visiting the home ground of my favoured football team [Arsenal] as well as numerous 'away' matches including visits to Chelsea, Newcastle and West Ham, two of those clubs mentioned being synonymous with previous football violence and the hooligan culture of the 70s and 80s.
In your letter you cite the Hillsborough disaster. It is a case always used to highlight why all-seater stadia should and is implemented across the top two divisions of the nation. Whilst it is indeed a tragedy that should have been avoided, it seems evident that the cause of the disater wasn't actually the fact that the crowd were standing. In fact, it was more a culmination of overcrowding, poor policing and the 'old style' terracing at hillsborough with the high fencing that penned the fans in. Also, it should be noted that only Liverpool Fc have had incidents where fans have died in the stands [Heysel and Hillsborough]. Hence, the reason why safe standing was introduced by Lord Justice Taylor 20 years ago now seems out of date since policing has vastly improved, CCTV has been introduced to the majority of stadia so troublemakers can be easily identified and banned, and overcrowding is more unlikely since there are more stewards present at football grounds and ticket scanning machines are now in place at turnstiles. As well as the fact that there is only really one club in peticular which has had a history of crowd disasters inside the ground of football matches.
I stated above that I have visited other clubs which have had a history of football violence, which has a clear link to 'crowd management' and 'crowd behaviour' which you stated in your letter. However, incidents involving football violence in the stands of grounds has indeed significantly been reduced, yet not as a result of the eradication of standing at football matches. I say that the introduction of all-seater stadia isn't the reason since it is clear for all that attend and view football games in our country, the away fans continuously make a mockery of the law and stand throughout the game as well as a small proportion of the home fans, yet there is no danger or violence perpetrated. This leads to the conclusion that it is in fact better policing and not all-seater stadia as the reason why football matches are now a safer environment for all who attend.
Furthermore, you state that seating 'offers higher standards of comfort and provides spectators with their own defensible spaces, which can only contribute to encouraging families and increasing the diversity of those attending football matches in recent years'. However, the proposal made by Don Foster suggests that seating will still be present, so comfort of the spectator isn't reduced. Moreover, I disagree with your view that seating has diversified the game. Football back in the 70s and 80s used to be the working class' sport, with match tickets for some costing £1 and the middle and upper class having the more expensive and luxourious seats in the stadium. However nowadays, match tickets start in upwards of £35. This has lead to the working class supporters being pushed out of the game and young local children being unable to watch their favourite team play live based on the fact that they simply can't afford it, especially in todays economic climate. The reintroduction of standing in football stadia would encoruage clubs to reduce ticket pricing since more people would be able to attend, and so would actually attract more people to visit a football match whilst retaining their original revenue. Surely this would be a positive thing?
Lastly, you consider the 'Kombi' system in Germany, and how clubs would not be able to use the system without significant investment, and in some cases the complete rebuilding of stands. I feel compelled to remind you that this isn't a pledge for every single club in the nation to at an instant have a system in place which allows safe standing. This is a pledge to see the law changed, so clubs have the option to decide whether or not to implement a safe standing area for themselves. Also, this is neither a pledge to see stadiums return to all standing nor discourage families from attending matches. Being 15 myself and a regular attendant of football matches, my desire for standing to make a return shows that even families want a change. Football fans in general seek a return to standing. Furthermore, it must be noted that in the ideal situation, there would be standing and seating areas present. People who wish to stand [which would be quite a significant number of fans, if not the majority] could stand in an area in the ground which supported this, whilst families could sit in the main stand with seats, so both sets of fans are satisfied and get what they want. This nulifies the argument of clubs having to 'rubild stands' since usually it would only be certain areas housing the safe standing system, and it is up to the clubs descretion whether to have standing permitted or not. It should be the clubs choice whether to house safe standing, not an out of date law made 20 years ago as a result of the actions of one club's fans and inadequate policing and stand design.
I feel that in these modern times and more safety cautious society, safe standing could become a reality that could and should be given the opportunity to work. We no longer live in the 80s, and football hooliganism and unsafe terracing is now a thing of the past. If the majority of fans want this and policing has now been vastly improved to ensure the safety of the crowd, then why shouldn't they be allowed to stand if the systems are available and examples in Germany have in fact proved to be a huge success, baring in mind that standing isn't necessarily the reason why there has been crowd trouble in the past? It makes economic and political sense to support this motion, and hopefully you now concur with these views and support Don Fosters' bid. The law introduced was right to correct a violent and unsafe football culture in a time where stadia were not fit for people to stand safely. Times have changed, and so adjustments need to be made to the law as a result.
Not too sure whether or not the below proposal will be a gimmick or not but I guess there would be no harm in getting half a million people signing an online petition for the re-introduction of standing at football grounds.
A plan to allow popular online petitions to be debated in Parliament within a year has been given the go-ahead by the government.
Ministers will seek agreement with the authorities, including the House of Commons Procedure Committee, to give the petitions parliamentary time.
Those receiving most support - probably 100,000 signatures - would be debated, with some possibly becoming bills.
But Labour said the plans would mean "crazy ideas" being discussed by MPs.
The government intends to shut down the e-petitions part of the Number 10 website, which has been suspended since the general election, and open a similar facility on the Directgov website.
This would be more closely moderated, with petitions checked closely for "eligibility".
I feel compelled to remind you that this isn't a pledge for every single club in the nation to at an instant have a system in place which allows safe standing. This is a pledge to see the law changed, so clubs have the option to decide whether or not to implement a safe standing area for themselves.
This makes the idea problematic for us then - there is no way the Board will try to push the big-money supporters out unless they think they can find a way to make even more more money at this point.
And even if they did where do you thionk the money to pay for that rpoject would come from?
Would being able to stand for a mid-table side with no money there to improve it really be better?
I am not against the idea - just saying that unless we can and will find additional money for it that doesn't come out of the football investment does it make sense?
The German model would be the way to go but again how do we pay for it without weakening the football team even further? And then where do we get the money when the people paying the big money walk away?
I'd love to see standing back but i cant see it happening, the memories of Hillsborough are still fresh in peoples minds (even though the modern standing is different)
We don't want opera-style luxury you plum. Better crowd management? Yeah that sounds about right. Gotta keep an eye on us all haven't they 
