Club level could be the death of football (12/2)
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proudtosaythatname
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The guy's on the pitch really do know who the real supporters are. It's a pleasure these days staying right to the end; our corporate 'friends' and Club Level fly-by-nights have gone leaving the hard core of genuine fans to enjoy the 'huddle' and see Willie and the boys applauding all sides of the ground and particularly the North End. Stuff the early leavers - they don't know what they're missing - but who cares?
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Cus Geezer
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But sadly the lower tier has got far too many early leavers also.our corporate 'friends' and Club Level fly-by-nights have gone leaving the hard core of genuine fans to enjoy the 'huddle' and see Willie and the boys applauding all sides of the ground and particularly the North End. Stuff the early leavers - they don't know what they're missing - but who cares?
The club level are beyond defending - but sadly much of these problems are effecting the ground as a whole.
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gooner.ed
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Cus Geezer wrote:This footage for me....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C56RHTaIZcs
is what it used to be all about. A smaller crowd than today, but one that seemed to know exactly what it was there for and effected the action.
blimey, this brought back some memories. 20 years ago. i watched the game from the clock end - which wasn't quite as crowded as the north bank. think i had a suspicion that would be so rammed that your feet wouldn't touch the floor so i went for the other end. crowd was around 54-55,000 i think. pre-hillsborough when the club used to get in as many as they could. remember pat van den hauwe breaking his leg in a challenge with rocky. but you know what, after rocky's goal on the video, you see mickey thomas geeing up the crowd! and we made 10 times the amount of noise than we do today! marvellous to see the crowd on the pitch at the end. didn't do any harm did it?
youtube is wonderful for this stuff. great link.
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QuartzGooner
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I think people can look back at the past with rose tinted spectacles when it comes to crowd noise at Highbury.
I can only speak from my experience of going there 1978 - 2006 so older fans please add yours.
The West Stand made noise when it was a goal, sang the odd "Arsenal, Arsenal" chant but that was about it. I sat there as a kid in 70's and 80's and then 1998-2003.
I only once sat in East Upper...it was amazing. Like being in a gentleman's club. The opposition got applauded for passing the ball, by old boys in crested blazers and panama hats! Othwerwise no singing at all. But you know what, those old boys had character...old English sporting gentlemen types...and for all their relative silence they would not get on the back of an Arsenal player who was struggling, they were there through thick and thin and paid through the nose for it!
The North Bank was where I spent second half of the 1980's. I was topside, just to right of the mid terrace barrier. Topside and middle were noisy, we had all the chants. Crowd were teenagers and early twenties.
But!!!!!!!
Couple times I stood further down towards the pitch, or out on the roofless sides, and even on the left of the North Bank. It was much much quieter, probably because it was an older crowd who had nothing to prove to their mates, and just wanted to concentrate on the game.
What changed the singing was the seating. From 1993 onwards, there was simply a lot less singing and chanting.
Two reasons spring to mind.
1.) Once the terraces went, people could no longer guarantee being in large groups next to their mates every week, and so felt a little more inhibited being amongst strangers.
2.) Sitting down makes you feel more of an observer and less of a participant. I am not a psychologist so do not know why, but I really feel that. Maybe it's cos one moves less, can not lose himself in a crowd as much as when standing?
Any other ideas?
I can only speak from my experience of going there 1978 - 2006 so older fans please add yours.
The West Stand made noise when it was a goal, sang the odd "Arsenal, Arsenal" chant but that was about it. I sat there as a kid in 70's and 80's and then 1998-2003.
I only once sat in East Upper...it was amazing. Like being in a gentleman's club. The opposition got applauded for passing the ball, by old boys in crested blazers and panama hats! Othwerwise no singing at all. But you know what, those old boys had character...old English sporting gentlemen types...and for all their relative silence they would not get on the back of an Arsenal player who was struggling, they were there through thick and thin and paid through the nose for it!
The North Bank was where I spent second half of the 1980's. I was topside, just to right of the mid terrace barrier. Topside and middle were noisy, we had all the chants. Crowd were teenagers and early twenties.
But!!!!!!!
Couple times I stood further down towards the pitch, or out on the roofless sides, and even on the left of the North Bank. It was much much quieter, probably because it was an older crowd who had nothing to prove to their mates, and just wanted to concentrate on the game.
What changed the singing was the seating. From 1993 onwards, there was simply a lot less singing and chanting.
Two reasons spring to mind.
1.) Once the terraces went, people could no longer guarantee being in large groups next to their mates every week, and so felt a little more inhibited being amongst strangers.
2.) Sitting down makes you feel more of an observer and less of a participant. I am not a psychologist so do not know why, but I really feel that. Maybe it's cos one moves less, can not lose himself in a crowd as much as when standing?
Any other ideas?
MICKEY MOUSER
Well well the Scouser eloquently puts the case and as all scousers do embellishes it a tad to empahsise the point.
I wasnt at the game Monday but from the saftey of the Bath pub I was drinking in, it sounded like the atmosphere wasnt too bad,especially as we didnt have it all our own way on the pitch.
We can't go back and we can't change the clientel so what more is there to say ?
Not a lot !
Next !
I wasnt at the game Monday but from the saftey of the Bath pub I was drinking in, it sounded like the atmosphere wasnt too bad,especially as we didnt have it all our own way on the pitch.
We can't go back and we can't change the clientel so what more is there to say ?
Not a lot !
Next !
At Highbury, there was a clearer idea of what you could expect from each part of the ground and people generally chose (when they could) to their tastes. At the Emirates, there is more of a mix of people in all parts of the ground.
The seating/standing singing thing must be do with breathing/lung capacity, etc..
It is everyone duty to vocally get behind the team when they are in the stadium. Not singing songs necessarily but chanting, making noise, reacting to what's going on. One example is the other nigh when Sagna in the first half when past one player then another - there wasn't a mass of people reacting to that on the side of the ground. A significant proportion are not participating and there lies the problem.
The seating/standing singing thing must be do with breathing/lung capacity, etc..
It is everyone duty to vocally get behind the team when they are in the stadium. Not singing songs necessarily but chanting, making noise, reacting to what's going on. One example is the other nigh when Sagna in the first half when past one player then another - there wasn't a mass of people reacting to that on the side of the ground. A significant proportion are not participating and there lies the problem.
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timberford
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I still believe one of the major oversights in the new ground was sticking the general sale and family enclosure next to the away fans.
At Highbury the cheapest seats for season ticket holders were right next to the away support in the Clock End (I used to sit just 7 seats away from them) and this almost guaranteed a decent atmosphere and noise from that end of the ground in every match.
Now we have a singing section, but it's in the opposite corner from the away fans. Maybe they wanted to reduce the confrontation but they've definitely killed the banter.
We really need to get a new version of the "we're the clock end... we're the north bank..." chant going for the new stadium - and actually have it bouncing back from the two stands not just sung in the north stand lower. Perhaps this kind of thing is not possible any more due to the size of the new ground?
At Highbury the cheapest seats for season ticket holders were right next to the away support in the Clock End (I used to sit just 7 seats away from them) and this almost guaranteed a decent atmosphere and noise from that end of the ground in every match.
Now we have a singing section, but it's in the opposite corner from the away fans. Maybe they wanted to reduce the confrontation but they've definitely killed the banter.
We really need to get a new version of the "we're the clock end... we're the north bank..." chant going for the new stadium - and actually have it bouncing back from the two stands not just sung in the north stand lower. Perhaps this kind of thing is not possible any more due to the size of the new ground?
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QuartzGooner
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To Timberford:
You say we need to get a new version of "We're the Clock End" and 'We're the North Bank" chants for the new ground, give some identity to each area.
I agree.
Last tseason i wrote to the club, asking why they had not "named" each part of the ground "North Bank" "clcok end" etc.
I knwo the stadium is a "bowl" and not seperate stands, but I felt it was natural to name the parts of the ground.
The club wrote back explainign that they had no plans to name the four coloured quadrants.
I know they use the coloured quadrants to help fans undertand travel arrangements after games tec....but it made weird reading.
The club has not ignored our past, because they have included the clock on the outside of the stadium, and named the bridges after parts of Highbury...but I think the club wants a new identity for the stadium.
It is up to the fans to create the identity. A big effort shoudl be made to sing the right type of songs to do that.
You say we need to get a new version of "We're the Clock End" and 'We're the North Bank" chants for the new ground, give some identity to each area.
I agree.
Last tseason i wrote to the club, asking why they had not "named" each part of the ground "North Bank" "clcok end" etc.
I knwo the stadium is a "bowl" and not seperate stands, but I felt it was natural to name the parts of the ground.
The club wrote back explainign that they had no plans to name the four coloured quadrants.
I know they use the coloured quadrants to help fans undertand travel arrangements after games tec....but it made weird reading.
The club has not ignored our past, because they have included the clock on the outside of the stadium, and named the bridges after parts of Highbury...but I think the club wants a new identity for the stadium.
It is up to the fans to create the identity. A big effort shoudl be made to sing the right type of songs to do that.
The club have sanitised the stadium to such an effect that our ability to identify with the stadium and it's parts are diminished. The clock end people could have had the opportunity to buy season tickets in the South End but the club chose not do this. Who cares what a bridge is called if what happens regarding atmosphere inside the stadium is rubbish?
It is up to the club to help us identify with the stadium - something their policies so far have failed to do.
It is up to the club to help us identify with the stadium - something their policies so far have failed to do.
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QuartzGooner
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Galasso - the club can only do so much.
If everything is designated by them, it is not how things developed originally at Highbury.
These things have to be by both club and fans.
It has to evolve naturally over a period of time. It would be unralistic to expect the new stadium to hacve the "soul" of Highbury that Wenger talks of, and that we all felt. There was over 80 years of passion contained there. So far we have had a season and a half, which does not remotely compare.
The club can do more...but we as fans have to do our part.
We also have to realise that because there has been a significant shift in the way fans act since the early 90's, we are only gonna get part of the old style atmosphere back.
The social and sporting conditions that helped create and maintain the old atmosphere, no longer exist.
If everything is designated by them, it is not how things developed originally at Highbury.
These things have to be by both club and fans.
It has to evolve naturally over a period of time. It would be unralistic to expect the new stadium to hacve the "soul" of Highbury that Wenger talks of, and that we all felt. There was over 80 years of passion contained there. So far we have had a season and a half, which does not remotely compare.
The club can do more...but we as fans have to do our part.
We also have to realise that because there has been a significant shift in the way fans act since the early 90's, we are only gonna get part of the old style atmosphere back.
The social and sporting conditions that helped create and maintain the old atmosphere, no longer exist.
Atmosphere
We should have the REDsection singing 'We're the North Bank We're The North Bank We're The North Bank Highbury!' And then a group should be formed like in The East Stand there is Block 19 who are small but can be noisy yes. That group in the Clock End should then sing back 'We're The Clock End We're The Clock End We're The Clock End Highbury!' . How do you think REDaction were formed eh? they started off from one person and expanded, and can continue expanding man. The new group could eb called 'RedAction Clock Enders' or 'South Singers' or something like that. It doesn't have to be the just Clock End either, what about the North West Corner? If more people joined in it would be fantastic man. To all the silent people out there: SING AND JOIN IN WITH REDACTION, THE MORE WE SING THE MORE WE WIN!
What? What? What? Were you around when Highbury was built? They put terraces in a stadium (colloseum?) and people expressed themselves. Of course it's going to take time, in 20 years, etc...that's obvious. Next you'll be telling me it's Thursday today.QuartzGooner wrote:Galasso - the club can only do so much.
If everything is designated by them, it is not how things developed originally at Highbury.
These things have to be by both club and fans.
It has to evolve naturally over a period of time. It would be unralistic to expect the new stadium to hacve the "soul" of Highbury that Wenger talks of, and that we all felt. There was over 80 years of passion contained there. So far we have had a season and a half, which does not remotely compare.
The club can do more...but we as fans have to do our part.
We also have to realise that because there has been a significant shift in the way fans act since the early 90's, we are only gonna get part of the old style atmosphere back.
The social and sporting conditions that helped create and maintain the old atmosphere, no longer exist.
It's simple - fans had a choice and migrated to where they wanted to be. The club could have but didn't implement the one thing that would have made the atmosphere better - the old clock end.
They say they want a bear pit atmosphere but all their policies are against this. Arsenal have a traditionally quiet crowd so taking away the one area of the ground where you would have been guaranteed something is laughable.
Tell me what YOU want to do that will make people who don't want to sing - sing - because naming pieces of concrete and quadrants is not going to do that. And remember, they didn't much sing at Highbury but at least there were real choices (and I don't mean the redaction "block")
I say unreserved seating or season tickets holders/red action at the Clock End and and at the North End.
The only games that create a good atmosphere these days are those where people are standing - as those going away from home will testify. But the club can do better than now.
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QuartzGooner
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Galasso
Unreserved seating is never going to work. People have paid different prices for their season tickets depending on where the seats are in the stadium.
Also people could, and did, apply for seats to be together. The club had that facility for groups to sit together. Not hundreds of people, but small groups.
The club probably made a conscious decision to put Redaction away from away fans. It is not hard to understand why, the club and the police want to minimise chances of aggro.
I am not saying RedAction want to fight away fans, but the club and the police know that there is less antagonisation by keeping them a distance from away fans.
You say that it is "obvious" that it takes time for people to get used to a stadium, for fans to grow into it and express themselves. The way you write it is that you are saying I am somehow stupid for not realising that.
Well pal, I am not stupid, and it is not "obvious". If it was obvious, there would not be discussions of this nature on message boards.
I advise you to read "The End", a briliant book by Tom Watt (maybe you have read it already?).
It explains what it was like at Highbury in 1913. Of course I was not around then.
You ask what I want to do to make people sing.
I have a view, as I said before, that the culture of football fans has changed since the early 1990's. I honestly belive that many fans do not want to sing, and never will. They are of an age when one is less likely to sing. There are more "corporate" fans. They are not too interested in singing.
We cannot bring back the past.
The only suggestion I have is that you should sing, and hope the people next to you will sing too, because they feel it will help the team.
Many things have been tried. The club even printed songs and left pieces of paper on the seats to encourage fans.
There are songs put on this and other websites.
None of this works.
It is up to individuals to create new songs, during matches. It is up to the same individuals to sing those sings, even if others do not follow at first.
If it is a good song, people will sing it eventually.
Unreserved seating is never going to work. People have paid different prices for their season tickets depending on where the seats are in the stadium.
Also people could, and did, apply for seats to be together. The club had that facility for groups to sit together. Not hundreds of people, but small groups.
The club probably made a conscious decision to put Redaction away from away fans. It is not hard to understand why, the club and the police want to minimise chances of aggro.
I am not saying RedAction want to fight away fans, but the club and the police know that there is less antagonisation by keeping them a distance from away fans.
You say that it is "obvious" that it takes time for people to get used to a stadium, for fans to grow into it and express themselves. The way you write it is that you are saying I am somehow stupid for not realising that.
Well pal, I am not stupid, and it is not "obvious". If it was obvious, there would not be discussions of this nature on message boards.
I advise you to read "The End", a briliant book by Tom Watt (maybe you have read it already?).
It explains what it was like at Highbury in 1913. Of course I was not around then.
You ask what I want to do to make people sing.
I have a view, as I said before, that the culture of football fans has changed since the early 1990's. I honestly belive that many fans do not want to sing, and never will. They are of an age when one is less likely to sing. There are more "corporate" fans. They are not too interested in singing.
We cannot bring back the past.
The only suggestion I have is that you should sing, and hope the people next to you will sing too, because they feel it will help the team.
Many things have been tried. The club even printed songs and left pieces of paper on the seats to encourage fans.
There are songs put on this and other websites.
None of this works.
It is up to individuals to create new songs, during matches. It is up to the same individuals to sing those sings, even if others do not follow at first.
If it is a good song, people will sing it eventually.
QuartzGoonerThe club probably made a conscious decision to put Redaction away from away fans. It is not hard to understand why, the club and the police want to minimise chances of aggro.
I am not saying RedAction want to fight away fans, but the club and the police know that there is less antagonisation by keeping them a distance from away fans.
You say that it is "obvious" that it takes time for people to get used to a stadium, for fans to grow into it and express themselves. The way you write it is that you are saying I am somehow stupid for not realising that.
Well pal, I am not stupid, and it is not "obvious". If it was obvious, there would not be discussions of this nature on message boards.
I am not, and was not, suggesting you were stupid- only that I think we can all take for granted that after a certain period time things will have changed regarding our identification with the stadium, right? As with all things in life and the passage of time.
And I know why the decision was taken not to make this arrangement but my argument is that the club had a choice. Arsenal's statistics for arrests at home games were not more at Highbury.
The clubs choice is to take the path of least resistance and not to encourage a "football" atmosphere inside the ground. They plant redaction in the corners - I am 4 blocks away and cannot hear a thing and I'm not the only one.
I do my bit as do many people around me - more than me actually - but the pervading sense of "consuming" rather than "partaking" which begun as a bad smell at Highbury is now a stink at the Emirates. I don't suggest going back in time, only that if the club really want our players to feel supported and the opposition to fell intimidated, they need to do more work because we are a quiet bunch.
