I'm sorry but that is a lot of waffle, Ramsey is a midfielder, Chamakh is a striker, the fact that Ramsey may go into areas that a second striker may go does not make him a second striker.
Our formations are pointless in the sense of debating, they are not rigid and he encourages them to express themselves and interchange, Song is a prime example of this nonsense as he is supposed to defend the defenders but bombs forward through lack of discipline, does that make him an attacking midfielder? No, it just makes him a liability.
Ricardo Alvarez has ‘signed for Arsenal?????
-
QuartzGooner
- Posts: 14474
- Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:49 pm
- Location: London
Waffle?
Where is it written in stone that Ramsey is a "midfielder and only a midfielder"?
He is typical of many of our players, attacking midfielders who play the "Approach play" role which has as many attributes of a second striker as it does of a midfielder (Arshavin, Nasri, Ramsey).
If Ramsey is used in deep midfield then I reckon it does not get the best out of his talents.
The "second striker" role is not just the way Bergkamp played it, it is a Number 10 role which is support to the striker and can be played deeper as Maradonna used to play it and as Cesc plays it in our current formation, or further forward as Bergkamp or Zola played it.
As for Song, I would say he is now an all round midfielder for us.
Defensive for his early career (and sometimes actually in defence), but performing regular forward runs last season, with Wilshere more frequently sitting deeper as the safety net.
Where is it written in stone that Ramsey is a "midfielder and only a midfielder"?
He is typical of many of our players, attacking midfielders who play the "Approach play" role which has as many attributes of a second striker as it does of a midfielder (Arshavin, Nasri, Ramsey).
If Ramsey is used in deep midfield then I reckon it does not get the best out of his talents.
The "second striker" role is not just the way Bergkamp played it, it is a Number 10 role which is support to the striker and can be played deeper as Maradonna used to play it and as Cesc plays it in our current formation, or further forward as Bergkamp or Zola played it.
As for Song, I would say he is now an all round midfielder for us.
Defensive for his early career (and sometimes actually in defence), but performing regular forward runs last season, with Wilshere more frequently sitting deeper as the safety net.
-
Gunnersaurus
- Posts: 4151
- Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:06 am
- Location: london
I'm sorry mate but you are trying to get too anal over positioning.
Ramsey is a midfielder, a midfielders job is to defend and attack, there's too many silly terms floating about these days, football is getting more like American football every day.
Fair enough if a player is called a defensive midfielder because his job is to sit deep and act as a shield for defence, I can handle that but its nonsense to label a player like Ramsey who likes to do a bit of attacking as a striker simply because he may get forward more in some games then he would in others.
It's all very football manager, sorry if that comes across as patronizing but that's the only way I can describe it.
Whatever next? Scezceny comes out of his box a lot with the ball next season will he now become a goalkeeping sweeper?
I cringe when I hear midfielders called quarterbacks, cringe.
A second striker is a striker that is slightly behind the main striker as opposed to being on the centre backs shoulder, to label a midfielder who likes to attack as a second striker is wrong imo, Ramsey only played a handful of games last year so its even more odd that you are pigeonholing him because he may have filled in for Cesc who's main aim in the team is to be the most forward thinking midfielder in the trio, Song could be injured at the start of next season with Ramsey filling in for him for 10 games, then what????
Ramsey is a midfielder, a midfielders job is to defend and attack, there's too many silly terms floating about these days, football is getting more like American football every day.
Fair enough if a player is called a defensive midfielder because his job is to sit deep and act as a shield for defence, I can handle that but its nonsense to label a player like Ramsey who likes to do a bit of attacking as a striker simply because he may get forward more in some games then he would in others.
It's all very football manager, sorry if that comes across as patronizing but that's the only way I can describe it.
Whatever next? Scezceny comes out of his box a lot with the ball next season will he now become a goalkeeping sweeper?
I cringe when I hear midfielders called quarterbacks, cringe.
A second striker is a striker that is slightly behind the main striker as opposed to being on the centre backs shoulder, to label a midfielder who likes to attack as a second striker is wrong imo, Ramsey only played a handful of games last year so its even more odd that you are pigeonholing him because he may have filled in for Cesc who's main aim in the team is to be the most forward thinking midfielder in the trio, Song could be injured at the start of next season with Ramsey filling in for him for 10 games, then what????
-
QuartzGooner
- Posts: 14474
- Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:49 pm
- Location: London
The subject was about who can play a second striker role.
I agree with you that Ramsey can play deep midfield, his through balls and long passing would be useful from that position.
But he can also play second striker, and at his age has yet to settle into an established position for Arsenal.
Many players in our squad have more than one position that they play, and we are especially fluid in formation.
So yes, Ramsey can play that second striker role, where the focus is on setting up opportunities for the main striker, and for other midfielders who make forward runs into the box.
It is the role I think he is most suited to.
I agree with you that Ramsey can play deep midfield, his through balls and long passing would be useful from that position.
But he can also play second striker, and at his age has yet to settle into an established position for Arsenal.
Many players in our squad have more than one position that they play, and we are especially fluid in formation.
So yes, Ramsey can play that second striker role, where the focus is on setting up opportunities for the main striker, and for other midfielders who make forward runs into the box.
It is the role I think he is most suited to.
To be fair Gunnersaurus, Gerrard was most definitely played as a second striker/number 10 role behind Torres for the latter part of Rafa's days at Liverpool, and that worked very well.
Cesc plays a similar role at Arsenal.
Ramsey could well fill that position when Cesc leaves. I really think that is in Wenger's mind.
If you don't think Wenger will do that, then fair enough.
As for what you call that role, I think you could quite easily find an argument for calling it attacking midfield, number 10, second striker, 'in the hole', or any number of other things. All of these satisfy part of the role, but perhaps not all of it - and when you start dismissing one of those names out of hand, whilst suggesting another, you're perhaps getting into splitting hairs territory, to be honest.
For me, it's attacking midfielder - but that's just me. Other names are just as valid.
Cesc plays a similar role at Arsenal.
Ramsey could well fill that position when Cesc leaves. I really think that is in Wenger's mind.
If you don't think Wenger will do that, then fair enough.
As for what you call that role, I think you could quite easily find an argument for calling it attacking midfield, number 10, second striker, 'in the hole', or any number of other things. All of these satisfy part of the role, but perhaps not all of it - and when you start dismissing one of those names out of hand, whilst suggesting another, you're perhaps getting into splitting hairs territory, to be honest.
For me, it's attacking midfielder - but that's just me. Other names are just as valid.
I wishGunnersaurus wrote:I'm sorry mate but you are trying to get too anal over positioning.
Ramsey is a midfielder, a midfielders job is to defend and attack, there's too many silly terms floating about these days, football is getting more like American football every day.
Fair enough if a player is called a defensive midfielder because his job is to sit deep and act as a shield for defence, I can handle that but its nonsense to label a player like Ramsey who likes to do a bit of attacking as a striker simply because he may get forward more in some games then he would in others.
It's all very football manager, sorry if that comes across as patronizing but that's the only way I can describe it.
Whatever next? Scezceny comes out of his box a lot with the ball next season will he now become a goalkeeping sweeper?
I cringe when I hear midfielders called quarterbacks, cringe.
A second striker is a striker that is slightly behind the main striker as opposed to being on the centre backs shoulder, to label a midfielder who likes to attack as a second striker is wrong imo, Ramsey only played a handful of games last year so its even more odd that you are pigeonholing him because he may have filled in for Cesc who's main aim in the team is to be the most forward thinking midfielder in the trio, Song could be injured at the start of next season with Ramsey filling in for him for 10 games, then what????
-
Gunnersaurus
- Posts: 4151
- Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:06 am
- Location: london
I don't disagree, Ramsey could probably 'do a job' there much like Vermaelen could play at left back or Bendtner on the wing, none of that makes them that position and none of them were signed for that position, granted he could play there but then isn't that what most hate about Wenger in that he keeps trying to remould players, I'm sure Ramsey could play there as much as Denilson could if one day Wenger wakes up and decides he's gonna be the new Bergkamp.g88ner wrote:To be fair Gunnersaurus, Gerrard was most definitely played as a second striker/number 10 role behind Torres for the latter part of Rafa's days at Liverpool, and that worked very well.
Cesc plays a similar role at Arsenal.
Ramsey could well fill that position when Cesc leaves. I really think that is in Wenger's mind.
If you don't think Wenger will do that, then fair enough.
As for what you call that role, I think you could quite easily find an argument for calling it attacking midfield, number 10, second striker, 'in the hole', or any number of other things. All of these satisfy part of the role, but perhaps not all of it - and when you start dismissing one of those names out of hand, whilst suggesting another, you're perhaps getting into splitting hairs territory, to be honest.
For me, it's attacking midfielder - but that's just me. Other names are just as valid.
-
QuartzGooner
- Posts: 14474
- Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:49 pm
- Location: London
Saurus
What makes you think of Ramsey as a deep midfielder rather than a more forward one?
He has played in both positions and done well in both.
There is surely a difference between players who can play well in more than one position (Cesc, Toure, Song, Lauren, Vieira, Ljungberg, Parlour) and the "Square Peg in a Round Hole" aspect of a Bendtner being played wide midfield?
What makes you think of Ramsey as a deep midfielder rather than a more forward one?
He has played in both positions and done well in both.
There is surely a difference between players who can play well in more than one position (Cesc, Toure, Song, Lauren, Vieira, Ljungberg, Parlour) and the "Square Peg in a Round Hole" aspect of a Bendtner being played wide midfield?
-
frankbutcher
- Posts: 3857
- Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:07 pm
- Location: Arsenal's Treatment Room
-
Gunnersaurus
- Posts: 4151
- Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:06 am
- Location: london
I'm not saying he's either, he's a midfielder that can defend and attack, to restrict him by pushing him too forward restricts him when we have far more suited players for that role like Arshavin or van Persie who don't really have much of a defensive streak to suppress.QuartzGooner wrote:Saurus
What makes you think of Ramsey as a deep midfielder rather than a more forward one?
He has played in both positions and done well in both.
There is surely a difference between players who can play well in more than one position (Cesc, Toure, Song, Lauren, Vieira, Ljungberg, Parlour) and the "Square Peg in a Round Hole" aspect of a Bendtner being played wide midfield?
Ramsey like Wilshere have the potential to be top class box to box style midfielders because their games are more rounded then Cesc who to be fair is better attacking then defending hence why he's been playing this role for the last two years, to change these two players is a negative IMO.
Seems we lost out because we wouldn'y pay another 1.7million, ah well at least Wenger will be able to say "we tried very hard to bring in players"
What an absolute bastard he is
According to METRO
The Argentinean playmaker is due at the San Siro this afternoon to put pen to paper on a five-year contract after the Italian Cup winners agreed a fee with Velez Sarsfield.
It was though the newly crowned Argentinean champions were holding out for £11million, while Arsenal were only prepared to go as high as £9million for the 23-year-old.
Palermo and Roma were also in the hunt for the highly-rated midfielder, but have been beaten to the punch by Inter, despite the player previously declaring his willingness to join the Gunners.
It’s thought Nerazzurri captain Javier Zanetti played a key role in persuading his countryman to join the Serie A side, but Arsenal fans will still be bitterly frustrated that a deal for one of their prime targets has once again fallen through due to a discrepancy over the transfer fee.
The north Londoners missed out on Fulham keeper Mark Schwarzer last summer after haggling over £2million in the final price.
The final deal Inter negotiated for Alvarez is extremely structured with reports suggesting they’re paying £5.1m up front, £900k after the first five games, another £900k after the next ten, and finally £1.3m after 15.
They’ve also arranged a friendly with Velez worth approximately £300k, and will pay a further £2.1million to the player, plus taxes.
What an absolute bastard he is
According to METRO
The Argentinean playmaker is due at the San Siro this afternoon to put pen to paper on a five-year contract after the Italian Cup winners agreed a fee with Velez Sarsfield.
It was though the newly crowned Argentinean champions were holding out for £11million, while Arsenal were only prepared to go as high as £9million for the 23-year-old.
Palermo and Roma were also in the hunt for the highly-rated midfielder, but have been beaten to the punch by Inter, despite the player previously declaring his willingness to join the Gunners.
It’s thought Nerazzurri captain Javier Zanetti played a key role in persuading his countryman to join the Serie A side, but Arsenal fans will still be bitterly frustrated that a deal for one of their prime targets has once again fallen through due to a discrepancy over the transfer fee.
The north Londoners missed out on Fulham keeper Mark Schwarzer last summer after haggling over £2million in the final price.
The final deal Inter negotiated for Alvarez is extremely structured with reports suggesting they’re paying £5.1m up front, £900k after the first five games, another £900k after the next ten, and finally £1.3m after 15.
They’ve also arranged a friendly with Velez worth approximately £300k, and will pay a further £2.1million to the player, plus taxes.
-
Barriecuda
- Posts: 2651
- Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 1:39 am
- Location: Canada
- Contact:
-
Exiled-Gooner
- Posts: 1089
- Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:26 pm
- Location: the spirit of 69!
If this is true that we wouldn't fork out another £2million quid then thats grounds for a riot!!!Christ wenger spent £15million on 2 french''willie youngs'' last summer....goonersid wrote:Seems we lost out because we wouldn'y pay another 1.7million, ah well at least Wenger will be able to say "we tried very hard to bring in players"
What an absolute bastard he is
According to METRO
The Argentinean playmaker is due at the San Siro this afternoon to put pen to paper on a five-year contract after the Italian Cup winners agreed a fee with Velez Sarsfield.
It was though the newly crowned Argentinean champions were holding out for £11million, while Arsenal were only prepared to go as high as £9million for the 23-year-old.
Palermo and Roma were also in the hunt for the highly-rated midfielder, but have been beaten to the punch by Inter, despite the player previously declaring his willingness to join the Gunners.
It’s thought Nerazzurri captain Javier Zanetti played a key role in persuading his countryman to join the Serie A side, but Arsenal fans will still be bitterly frustrated that a deal for one of their prime targets has once again fallen through due to a discrepancy over the transfer fee.
The north Londoners missed out on Fulham keeper Mark Schwarzer last summer after haggling over £2million in the final price.
The final deal Inter negotiated for Alvarez is extremely structured with reports suggesting they’re paying £5.1m up front, £900k after the first five games, another £900k after the next ten, and finally £1.3m after 15.
They’ve also arranged a friendly with Velez worth approximately £300k, and will pay a further £2.1million to the player, plus taxes.
