Who hates Wenger the most?

[brazilianGOONER]

btw, i'd like to add that one of the thing that pisses me off about brazilian culture is that here we give no respect to people for the things they've achieved. if a guy wins the world cup twice for brazil then scores an own goal in a friendly, he instantly gets called a c**t. we have very very short memory for respecting our people. you may not believe this, but many many youngsters here do not know who Ayrton Senna was. and fuck me, senna was the bergkamp of formula one.

and now when i see people calling wenger a fucking c**t, i must admit it saddens me. most of us would happily suck his cock 6 years ago. yeah he did fuck the club up a bit from that time on, but to call an old hero a c**t in my eyes is as childish an immature as it gets.

That is totally simplfying the situation and is not an accurate description of what is going on here and you know it - do you honestly feel that he has only "fcuked the club up a bit" ? You think he is being called a c**t for making a few mistakes ? Fact is that wenger has now dragged the club down to a lower level than what it was when he took over and I challenge anybody to prove otherwise The fact is that many, myself included, despise the man not for those mistakes but the fact he continues to make those very same mistakes over and over again and refuses to acknowledge these mistakes I despise him cos he thinks he is jesus christ reborn as he treats us fans and anybody who dares question him with total and utter contempt as he continues to believe that he is 100% right and everybody else is 100% wrong I hate the way he has continually put his own agenda ahead of what is best for the club and I include his refusal to resign in that statement as well Finally I hate listening to his hypocritical bullshit when he talks about money........a man that pays gobshites like bendtner/diaby etc the type of money they are on and take 6.5m a year from the club for himself has absolutely no ground to stand on when talking about financial prudence

As regards your point about many youngsters not knowing who senna was, can I also say that we have many fans over here who know fcuk all about frank mclintock, charlie george etc but will still try and talk down to some about their support of Arsenal - we call them jcl's mate and they are everywhere

i understand the points you make augie, but let me try to give some back to you:

my point about senna is different. senna is a national hero, he was an incredibly wonderful person and among the best pilots ever. it is unnaceptable that a guy born in brazil does not know who he was imo, it's not being JCL, that's being a total ignorant. it's like an english lad who never heard about The Beatles.

about hating wenger that's a different subject, but I don't think we're that worse than we were in '95. don't forget we managed to qualify for europe in the last game, thanks to a late goal by The Dennis. we had a marvelous stadium but that was too small and we didn't have an awesome training ground. we were unknown in the continent i live in and now all our matches are broadcasted. shit or no shit, we're a known team in europe and our revenue is enough to buy good players every season, even if the manager decides to save it all and play diaby instead

15 years have gone, he gave us the possibility of building a new stadium, he gave us a new training ground, an unbeaten title, two doubles and two extra FAs. he brought in at least 10 absolute legends to the club, including thierry, pires, ljungberg, overmars, sol... he also brought us 6 years of nothing, but to be honest we were always top 4, and looking back at arsenal's history that's not too bad (it only is if you compare to graham and chapman, who won more titles per year managed).

so even with the 6 fucked up years, he was still one of our best managers ever, augie. we're in a better financial situation, and now we are one of europe's great clubs (even if we never managed to win the fucking thing)

i simply can't hate him. i want him gone, and i'd say a few words to him, but in the end i'd shake his hand and thank him very much.

[Rosie_titters]

Babatunde - Get the London Underground to Totteridge and Whetstone Station and I'll meet you at the ticket barrier. It's just a short walk down Totteridge Lane to Pine Grove........

go on frank, knock the fucker out

[frankbutcher]

btw, i'd like to add that one of the thing that pisses me off about brazilian culture is that here we give no respect to people for the things they've achieved. if a guy wins the world cup twice for brazil then scores an own goal in a friendly, he instantly gets called a c**t. we have very very short memory for respecting our people. you may not believe this, but many many youngsters here do not know who Ayrton Senna was. and fuck me, senna was the bergkamp of formula one.

and now when i see people calling wenger a fucking c**t, i must admit it saddens me. most of us would happily suck his cock 6 years ago. yeah he did fuck the club up a bit from that time on, but to call an old hero a c**t in my eyes is as childish an immature as it gets.

That is totally simplfying the situation and is not an accurate description of what is going on here and you know it - do you honestly feel that he has only "fcuked the club up a bit" ? You think he is being called a c**t for making a few mistakes ? Fact is that wenger has now dragged the club down to a lower level than what it was when he took over and I challenge anybody to prove otherwise The fact is that many, myself included, despise the man not for those mistakes but the fact he continues to make those very same mistakes over and over again and refuses to acknowledge these mistakes I despise him cos he thinks he is jesus christ reborn as he treats us fans and anybody who dares question him with total and utter contempt as he continues to believe that he is 100% right and everybody else is 100% wrong I hate the way he has continually put his own agenda ahead of what is best for the club and I include his refusal to resign in that statement as well Finally I hate listening to his hypocritical bullshit when he talks about money........a man that pays gobshites like bendtner/diaby etc the type of money they are on and take 6.5m a year from the club for himself has absolutely no ground to stand on when talking about financial prudence

As regards your point about many youngsters not knowing who senna was, can I also say that we have many fans over here who know fcuk all about frank mclintock, charlie george etc but will still try and talk down to some about their support of Arsenal - we call them jcl's mate and they are everywhere

i understand the points you make augie, but let me try to give some back to you:

my point about senna is different. senna is a national hero, he was an incredibly wonderful person and among the best pilots ever. it is unnaceptable that a guy born in brazil does not know who he was imo, it's not being JCL, that's being a total ignorant. it's like an english lad who never heard about The Beatles.

about hating wenger that's a different subject, but I don't think we're that worse than we were in '95. don't forget we managed to qualify for europe in the last game, thanks to a late goal by The Dennis. we had a marvelous stadium but that was too small and we didn't have an awesome training ground. we were unknown in the continent i live in and now all our matches are broadcasted. shit or no shit, we're a known team in europe and our revenue is enough to buy good players every season, even if the manager decides to save it all and play diaby instead

15 years have gone, he gave us the possibility of building a new stadium, he gave us a new training ground, an unbeaten title, two doubles and two extra FAs. he brought in at least 10 absolute legends to the club, including thierry, pires, ljungberg, overmars, sol... he also brought us 6 years of nothing, but to be honest we were always top 4, and looking back at arsenal's history that's not too bad (it only is if you compare to graham and chapman, who won more titles per year managed).

so even with the 6 fucked up years, he was still one of our best managers ever, augie. we're in a better financial situation, and now we are one of europe's great clubs (even if we never managed to win the fucking thing)

i simply can't hate him. i want him gone, and i'd say a few words to him, but in the end i'd shake his hand and thank him very much.

TOTAL AND UTTER BULLSHIT!

Wenger has been good for us, but the money that has overtaken football has more to do with our financial strength than Wenger. We're not even that strong financially. Our wage bill and "management expenses" in the accounts are an absolute disgrace. Once you strip out player sales and property deals, we break-even. FACT.

Wenger took advantage of it, but he didn't put us in the position we are in now. THE FANS DID. We are not Bolton or Stoke. WE ARE ARSENAL. You seem to be forgetting that fact pal. In Brazil not many people may have heard of us. So what? That's not my fuckking problem. In England and Europe we were already big-time BEFORE Wenger turned up.

JCL....

[brazilianGOONER]

TOTAL AND UTTER BULLSHIT!

Wenger has been good for us, but the money that has overtaken football has more to do with our financial strength than Wenger. We're not even that strong financially. Our wage bill and "management expenses" in the accounts are an absolute disgrace. Once you strip out player sales and property deals, we break-even. FACT.

Wenger took advantage of it, but he didn't put us in the position we are in now. THE FANS DID. We are not Bolton or Stoke. WE ARE ARSENAL. You seem to be forgetting that fact pal. In Brazil not many people may have heard of us. So what? That's not my fuckking problem. In England and Europe we were already big-time BEFORE Wenger turned up.

JCL....

sorry mate, i shouldn't have said that the arsenal is all about wenger and that we the fans are stupid and matter nothing to club.

i'm ashamed of myself now

may i ask how old you are, frank?

[frankbutcher]

TOTAL AND UTTER BULLSHIT!

Wenger has been good for us, but the money that has overtaken football has more to do with our financial strength than Wenger. We're not even that strong financially. Our wage bill and "management expenses" in the accounts are an absolute disgrace. Once you strip out player sales and property deals, we break-even. FACT.

Wenger took advantage of it, but he didn't put us in the position we are in now. THE FANS DID. We are not Bolton or Stoke. WE ARE ARSENAL. You seem to be forgetting that fact pal. In Brazil not many people may have heard of us. So what? That's not my fuckking problem. In England and Europe we were already big-time BEFORE Wenger turned up.

JCL....

sorry mate, i shouldn't have said that the arsenal is all about wenger and that we the fans are stupid and matter nothing to club.

i'm ashamed of myself now

may i ask how old you are, frank?

Arrogant as well huh?

You don't know what you're talking about. Look at what I have written and give me the evidence that I'm wrong. You seem to think we are a small Club that Wenger made into a monster. If you believe that, you're a fucking clown.

[brazilianGOONER]

TOTAL AND UTTER BULLSHIT!

Wenger has been good for us, but the money that has overtaken football has more to do with our financial strength than Wenger. We're not even that strong financially. Our wage bill and "management expenses" in the accounts are an absolute disgrace. Once you strip out player sales and property deals, we break-even. FACT.

Wenger took advantage of it, but he didn't put us in the position we are in now. THE FANS DID. We are not Bolton or Stoke. WE ARE ARSENAL. You seem to be forgetting that fact pal. In Brazil not many people may have heard of us. So what? That's not my fuckking problem. In England and Europe we were already big-time BEFORE Wenger turned up.

JCL....

sorry mate, i shouldn't have said that the arsenal is all about wenger and that we the fans are stupid and matter nothing to club.

i'm ashamed of myself now

may i ask how old you are, frank?

Arrogant as well huh?

You don't know what you're talking about. Look at what I have written and give me the evidence that I'm wrong. You seem to think we are a small Club that Wenger made into a monster. If you believe that, you're a fucking clown.

i'm arrogant, frank? i didn't call you anything mate, you called me clown, arrogant and JCL.

let's start from scratch mate, i think it's the best solution. you see, i actually believe in peace, maybe i've been smoking too much...

we both support the same team frank, and the fact that we view things differently shouldn't make you feel i'm a JCL. i won't try to explain to you what type of supporter i am 'cause that's stupid, but talk to people over here and they'll tell you i indeed have feelings for the club like every other supporter. if you want to discuss that subject, i'll gladly do it by PM.

you hate the man, and you're entitled to feel however you wish. but my arguments are that if he leaves next season he won't have left the club at a worse situation then when he arrived, the club's 'stature' in europe has undoubtedly raised (unlike db10gooner who gets shorter and shorter) and the club is a lot more valuable. if you think that all he did until 2005 is not good enough to spend 6 years making shit decisions and worsening the team, that's ok, i respect and understand that. i'm just arguing that he has done great stuff for this club and to show respect for that (because i truly believe in being ever thankful to those who do great things for you) i don't like to see him called a *word censored*.

a deluded, old man who lost his mind and makes one shit decision after another, and won't probably be able to ever recreate his best teams, ok, i even agree with that and say that here all the time. a fucking *word censored*, no mate, that's john terry, sheringham, ashley cole, wayne rooney and many many others. the man who brought us the invincibles and thierry henry is more than that. those are my opinions.

i am however open to listening to yours and discussing it, but like civilized men.

[Babatunde]

Brazilian Gooner I am curious to hear. How long have you supported the Arsenal? And do you honestly think Wenger has put the club in an imperious position? Do you feel Arsenal were a moderate sized club before AW and are now heavyweights? I am curious to know about this....

[SWLGooner]

TOTAL AND UTTER BULLSHIT!

Wenger has been good for us, but the money that has overtaken football has more to do with our financial strength than Wenger. We're not even that strong financially. Our wage bill and "management expenses" in the accounts are an absolute disgrace. Once you strip out player sales and property deals, we break-even. FACT.

Wenger took advantage of it, but he didn't put us in the position we are in now. THE FANS DID. We are not Bolton or Stoke. WE ARE ARSENAL. You seem to be forgetting that fact pal. In Brazil not many people may have heard of us. So what? That's not my fuckking problem. In England and Europe we were already big-time BEFORE Wenger turned up.

JCL....

sorry mate, i shouldn't have said that the arsenal is all about wenger and that we the fans are stupid and matter nothing to club.

i'm ashamed of myself now

may i ask how old you are, frank?

Arrogant as well huh?

You don't know what you're talking about. Look at what I have written and give me the evidence that I'm wrong. You seem to think we are a small Club that Wenger made into a monster. If you believe that, you're a fucking clown.

i'm arrogant, frank? i didn't call you anything mate, you called me clown, arrogant and JCL.

let's start from scratch mate, i think it's the best solution. you see, i actually believe in peace, maybe i've been smoking too much...

we both support the same team frank, and the fact that we view things differently shouldn't make you feel i'm a JCL. i won't try to explain to you what type of supporter i am 'cause that's stupid, but talk to people over here and they'll tell you i indeed have feelings for the club like every other supporter. if you want to discuss that subject, i'll gladly do it by PM.

you hate the man, and you're entitled to feel however you wish. but my arguments are that if he leaves next season he won't have left the club at a worse situation then when he arrived, the club's 'stature' in europe has undoubtedly raised (unlike db10gooner who gets shorter and shorter) and the club is a lot more valuable. if you think that all he did until 2005 is not good enough to spend 6 years making shit decisions and worsening the team, that's ok, i respect and understand that. i'm just arguing that he has done great stuff for this club and to show respect for that (because i truly believe in being ever thankful to those who do great things for you) i don't like to see him called a c**t.

a deluded, old man who lost his mind and makes one shit decision after another, and won't probably be able to ever recreate his best teams, ok, i even agree with that and say that here all the time. a fucking c**t, no mate, that's john terry, sheringham, ashley cole, wayne rooney and many many others. the man who brought us the invincibles and thierry henry is more than that. those are my opinions.

i am however open to listening to yours and discussing it, but like civilized men.

*ladymen

[brazilianGOONER]

Brazilian Gooner I am curious to hear. How long have you supported the Arsenal? And do you honestly think Wenger has put the club in an imperious position? Do you feel Arsenal were a moderate sized club before AW and are now heavyweights? I am curious to know about this....

around 13 years mate. it's a long story actually, started when Dennis signed, but it's a bit long and i figure some people here might be a bit bored of reading it, so i can PM it to you if you wish.

about the position, i think any comparison does not work, as football world changed so much in these last 15 years. as i said somewhere, i think wenger was a master of the game when it was starting to really become a financial thing and when players still had 10 pints the night before matches, but his greatest skills are not worth that much these days, again because the game has changed.

i do feel we are in a better financial situation. i don't think we're heavyweights. we're not in an imperial position by any means. i don't think this team is much better (maybe it's even a bit worse) than the one in 1995, but the only reason why it is so is because the manager is stubborn and won't buy the necessary players. the money is there, and another guy who comes next can build a good team out of who we have plus those 40-50 millions. i think the stadium means we can generate more money than before.

we haven't become real madrid. we weren't port vale before. we were the almighty arsenal before and now we're the almighty arsenal. but as a foot note, please indicate the great stadium, great training ground and all those wonderful teams from 97-05.

[Babatunde]

Compare the state Graham left the Arsenal in when he got screwed over by the board (the bung was an excuse, it'd been going on for ages).

Now shall we compare the goalkeeping position: were Arsenal stronger or weaker than the present Arsenal in that department? No contest. Stronger under Graham when he left.

Now let us next look at the defence. Look at the personnel in Graham's back five. That defence was top notch and had just lost their way a bit, riven with psychological issues. But to compare that defence of then to the ragtag shambles of now would be an insult. No contest there, Arsenal were stronger when Graham left.

Next up midfield. Now this one is a debatable one. I think it's real close there but when I look at the current Arsenal midfield I only see Wilshere making the grade. Song is shit. Who else is there - Benayoun? Pah. Arteta is good. Decent. Who else is there? Mind you, the midfield Georgie left wasn't all that to be fair so I'd say perhaps the current Arsenal midfield shades it there.

Now up front, that's another no contest. RVP is excellent but he ain't no Ian Wright. No chance. And beyond that look at the depth of the Arsenal attack back then and compare to the clowns of today: Chamakh and Psrk Choo Young. These two clowns wouldn't have got a game under Terry Neill ffs, that's how shit they are. Again a no contest in attack.


So when Graham left the Arsenal the team was: better defensively organized, stronger defence, much deeper and better attack and better keeper. The only place the current Wenger-dross beats it is in midfield. But I'd say that would be in terms of quality because in terms of solidity and application, Graham's midfield - despite the rubbish in it when he left - were at least battlers.

Now. If Wenger were (please God let it happen) to piss off tomorrow and a new man was to come in, just look at the state of that current shower. Rubbish all over the place. No question this is a much weaker squad than the one Graham left behind. Rioch even went a step further and signed Bergkamp for what was big money back then, it was a HUGE signing.

The kind of signing Wenger would never ever have the balls to make.

So any new manager coming to Arsenal wouldn't even be able to count on a genuine superstar big-name player to build a team around either. But people are entitled to their view....just don't see how anyone can claim Wenger can cling to any kind of positive legacy? He's pissed on that time ago. For me he's a failure, pure and simple. And this current lot are more than capable of finishing even lower than Graham's lot did in his worst season. Easily. (see 8-2).

[Babatunde]

Brazilian Gooner I am curious to hear. How long have you supported the Arsenal? And do you honestly think Wenger has put the club in an imperious position? Do you feel Arsenal were a moderate sized club before AW and are now heavyweights? I am curious to know about this....

around 13 years mate. it's a long story actually, started when Dennis signed, but it's a bit long and i figure some people here might be a bit bored of reading it, so i can PM it to you if you wish.

about the position, i think any comparison does not work, as football world changed so much in these last 15 years. as i said somewhere, i think wenger was a master of the game when it was starting to really become a financial thing and when players still had 10 pints the night before matches, but his greatest skills are not worth that much these days, again because the game has changed.

i do feel we are in a better financial situation. i don't think we're heavyweights. we're not in an imperial position by any means. i don't think this team is much better (maybe it's even a bit worse) than the one in 1995, but the only reason why it is so is because the manager is stubborn and won't buy the necessary players. the money is there, and another guy who comes next can build a good team out of who we have plus those 40-50 millions. i think the stadium means we can generate more money than before.

we haven't become real madrid. we weren't port vale before. we were the almighty arsenal before and now we're the almighty arsenal. but as a foot note, please indicate the great stadium, great training ground and all those wonderful teams from 97-05.

Ok cheers mate. Not having a pop but I feel your point of view on Wenger is very correlated with the amount of time you've supported the club! It ain't a coincidence that AW is the only manager you have ever known. I feel this clouds your judgment and makes you fear the unknown....but you are entitled to your opinion and that's fair enough.

I just don't agree with it one bit....

[Babatunde]

Wenger is not responsible for the new ground and London Colney.
The fans are. I wish people would stop crediting AW with the Emirates. That ain't down to him!!!

[brazilianGOONER]

i understand your points, but you compare players 17-years apart like you were playing football manager. the game changed. english football has changed.

and i'm not comparing squads, i'm comparing the "financial and football situation at the club". and i'm not saying that wenger was better than graham.

i got dragged into all this just by saying i don't like to hear people calling wenger a *word censored*. just like i'd hate to hear people calling graham a *word censored* because of his last years. fuck me, how far have i gone. time for a beer.

cheers everyone

[This Is The Daybreak]

You can't possibly compare a team 17 years ago to today. We were a shambles when Graham left, lying 15th or so in the league. Our defense had lost their enthusiasm, nothing from midfield at all and only Ian Wrights goalscoring saved us from being relegated that season. Grahams time was up there was no question. The team 17 years ago would have got relegated if they were up against the teams today, no question.

In a similar way I think Wengers time is up in the sense that it has all gone stale. I will always respect him and don't hate him, he does baffle me and infuriate me but I don't hate the guy. He brought us a wonderful team those years ago but he has lost his way which is why I think it's his time like it was Grahams.

[Babatunde]

You can't possibly compare a team 17 years ago to today. We were a shambles when Graham left, lying 15th or so in the league. Our defense had lost their enthusiasm, nothing from midfield at all and only Ian Wrights goalscoring saved us from being relegated that season. Grahams time was up there was no question. The team 17 years ago would have got relegated if they were up against the teams today, no question.
.

Sorry but why can we not compare?? Sure the game was different etc....but I am comparing the relative merits of each squad. This current squad has no bottle and it's imo ridiculous revisionism to claim that Graham's last team 'would have been relegated'. Cobblers. If that's true then the current Arsenal team are more than capable of finishing 15th or 16th also.

You say our defence had 'lost their enthusiasm'.
While I don't debate that, they were still quality. Our defence now never had the enthusiasm to lose, they are just plain shit. Full stop.

I am not comparing Graham's team in terms of how they'd have performed in today's PL. Please don't be so narrow. I am comparing the respective merits and qualities of the team. The question is: if you had to trust a team to go into battle and dig deep would yu have trusted Graham's team? Or this Wenger induced mare? For me the answer is easy.

I dunno if you've been watching but, like Graham's last side, this current Arsenal are severely low on quality. There's rubbish all over the shop like the Garbage Pale kids. It's sad to see at time, Dortmund slicing our back 4 wide open four times in thirteen minutes and some praise the 'rearguard action'. Unbelievable.

This current lot are in my honest opinion some of the worst lot to have ever worn the shirt. People blast Morrow and Selley etc but at least those lot were hard working pros and got stuck in. They knew they were shit and didn't try and pretend otherwise so rubbish as they were, you got a shift out of them.

With the current lot, you have the Orwellian nightmare of them being pretty darn shit yet thinking they are much better than they actually are. Hence the sight of rubbish players like Diaby and Song thinking they are too good to just work hard and trying to ball like Beckenbauer. Fuck all work rate, lots of prima donnas - again, Graham was a disciplinarian and there were no prima donnas under him.

What I am saying is that, in my honest opinion, if Wenger left tomorrow the next man coming in would have an absolute nightmare trying to offload the overpaid crap, trying to get a winning culture back at the club and getting quality in.

Say what you will about GG but one thing is a fact and that is that he left Rioch - and subsequently AW, a darn fine platform/springboard for success. A wonderful back five who were drilled, a wonderful goalkeeper and a lethal striker who could turn it on anytime. Van Persie is nowhere near Wright's level and until he has a full season of smashing it, never will be.

So I say it again: if a new man comes in to Arsenal, which platform is he going to have to work from? Hence my comment that the club is actually in a worse off state (not financially but ON THE PITCH) now than it was when GG left. Fact.